Hypothetical Tactical Option Question.

Duckk wrote:

Your standing orders are not to reveal the FTL nature of Apollo nor the Mk 23's 3rd stage

Why? The cat's out of the bag thanks to Second Manticore and Spindle regarding Apollo. And while I suppose it might be interesting to keep the Sollies guessing about the specific maximum range of the Alliance's MDMs, practically speaking it's not really going to matter. The SLN is waking up to MDMs. Since there's a demonstrable two-drive missile, it's not a stretch for them to think of a three-drive missile either. So they'll know that the Alliance could have a power flight range in excess of 60 million kilometers, even if they don't know the exact numbers.

Second, if the Admiralty wanted to keep that information secret, they wouldn't have sent along the pods to use them. The best way to keep the secret is to rendering one incapable of revealing it. So since they did send the pods, then their presence means you're allowed to use them if the situation warrants it. I reckon being outnumbered 2 to one in hulls (and far, far worse in terms of tonnage) qualifies as one of those "in case of emergency, break glass" cases.

Since there's a demonstrable two-drive missile, it's not a stretch for them to think of a three-drive missile either.

You're sure willing to give the Sollies more credit than I am. Besides, suspecting and knowing is two different things.

Second, if the Admiralty wanted to keep that information secret, they wouldn't have sent along the pods to use them.

It's a hypothetical scenario. There could be many reasons known only to the Admiralty. Perhaps there's been a snag in production and Mk 23s are all there is left to send you.

Yours is not to wonder why, yours is but to do or die.

(Without having read the thread, to avoid getting ideas from other people's posts:)

I take MK16s, for several reasons.

As a preamble, whatever type of pod I'm taking, I see no reason to take less than my maximum capacity, assuming that said capacity represents the largest number of pods I can limpet without blocking sensors/etc. Nobody ever complained about having more ammo than they needed, after all, and this also means that any of it that I don't use up is still safely with me rather than sitting vulnerable in a cargo container in system A. In the worst case that the Chanson is forced to destroy the container, taking the maximum pod load means that I retain the largest possible reserve.

One, Apollo is, for most concievable situations, probably actually of limited usefulness here. Since my Rolands don't have KHII, I *can't* give away the FTL nature of Apollo even if I wanted to. Absent that, the benefits of Apollo are that the control missiles multiply effective control links by a factor of 8 and offer somewhat improved ability to penetrate missile defenses through finer control of their slaved attack and EW missiles. However, putting against that is the reduction in payload - I can haul 120 pods, which would be 1200 MK23 without Apollo but only 960 MK23 with it. And I probaly don't *need* the control link multiplication very much - or, rather, I can't actually carry enough pods to really take advantage of it. We know Rolands have the fire control to handle at least a stacked double 'broadside', and if they have the same 60% redundancy that a Saganami-C does, that gives them at least 38 control links each, for a total of at least 304 for the division as a whole. (And honestly that's probably a conservative estimate.) Point being, I've already got the control links to completely empty all of the MK23 pods I can carry in 4 salvoes tops - adding Apollo just turns that from 4 300-missile salvoes into one 960-missile salvo. Overall, given the already-anemic nature of sollie missile defenses, the extra missiles from taking plain MK23 pods would probably be more helpful than the slight increase in lethality from using Apollo in any situation other than facing a large force of sollie wallers.

Of course, that assumes that you're taking MK23s in the first place, which I wouldn't. Especially if I'm under orders to not unnecessarily reveal the MK23's 3rd stage, they really don't offer much practical advantage over the MK16G, and taking MK16s means that my pods have 14 missiles each instead of 10. Again, ammo capacity is always the Roland's achilles heel, and adding 1680 capital-missile-weight MK16Gs on top of my 1920 internally-carried MK16Gs seems like by far the best use of those pods.

In terms of a battle plan, my main worry is the possibility that this is a trap or misdirection of some kind. If it really is just those stupid sollies throwing 16 BCs at a target that they think is vulnerable, then barring some kind of epic screwup my Rolands are more than sufficient to annihilate them without losses. All I need to do is to not close beyond the outer portions of my MK16 range envelope and they can't hurt me even if they have Cataphracts. As such, any real effort in my planning is going to be oriented towards mitigating any potential traps.

So, first off, I'm going to drop out of hyper in system X *not* on a least-time course towards the threatened extraction platform. Shifting a couple light-minutes up off the ecliptic along the hyper limit doesn't add much distance to any target that's more than a couple light-minutes inside that limit, but it neatly puts the kibosh on anyone trying to lie in wait (whether in real-space or in hyper) right where they expect me to come in. Second, I'm going to bring in a good chunk of velocity and try to get inside the hyper limit quickly, again to mitigate the chance of getting dropped in on. Third, as noted I'm not letting anything get inside of Cataphract range of me intact, and fourth I'm going to thoroughly scour my path via drones for any stealthed ships trying to get in range to ambush me. All of these are overkill if it really is just the 16 solly BCs, but I'd rather waste some caution than get surprised. If they *do* drop anything nasty in on me, I empty my MK16s into it with extreme prejudice and then run if there's anything still standing when the smoke clears.

The other possibility is that they want to attack system A while I'm over in system X, or even that they intended to attack both simultaneously and just screwed up their timing. In that case the most painful potential outcome is that the Chanson is forced to destroy the staging base/PASS container. In light of that, I'd actually leave orders for the Chanson to *hide* the container (assuming its tractors are sufficient to haul the thing around). If my base is orbiting a gas giant, there ought to be a good number of moons around. I'd have the Chanson pick a smallish one and find a nice ravine or crater wall to tuck the container into until we get back. After it's done that it can still keep an eye on the system, of course, but it can blow the base and run if need be without destroying those vital supplies.

Due to plot, once you activate the tractors on a pod you will burn the pod reactor out in a week. Now it's possible that some of you might have some idea how to sidestep that but no.

kzt wrote:Due to plot, once you activate the tractors on a pod you will burn the pod reactor out in a week. Now it's possible that some of you might have some idea how to sidestep that but no.

Jesus Christ man, are you physically incapable of not thread crapping any time you post? You do this in practically every thread.

kzt wrote:Due to plot, once you activate the tractors on a pod you will burn the pod reactor out in a week. Now it's possible that some of you might have some idea how to sidestep that but no.

Now I know why System B is only 2 hours away from System A.

Dauntless wrote:hmmm. yes, that is somewhat contradictory isn't it?

Actually, I was following the "standard" briefing given to commanders early - mid 1922. The 3rd stage of the Mk 23 was not supposed to be used in front of Sollies, and Apollo's FTL capability was not supposed to be used against Sollies - even though Apollo pods were sent (in advance of the squadrons of Apollo Invicti) to Spindle for the battle there.

Since Rolands don't have Apollo, that dictate is pointless anyway, but the thought experiment was designed to see what people would go for - Accuracy with the RF linked Apollo pods, Mass Hitting power with the Mk 23 (10 lasing rods and a bigger warhead than the Mk 16), or just shere # of powerful missiles with the Mk 16s.

..And Duckk had to get all pickey with the "rules" ....

And Yes, a properly designed PASS container (that stupid concoction was all mine so no one would attempt to drag an ammo ship with them to the other system) would have ammo and spares tailored to the ships and their mission. But then again, it's the military, so the PASS would probably include a Division's worth of Arctic uniforms and 5000 gallons of orange Sherbert, but no Roland air purifier filters.

Duckk wrote:

Your standing orders are not to reveal the FTL nature of Apollo nor the Mk 23's 3rd stage

Why? The cat's out of the bag thanks to Second Manticore and Spindle regarding Apollo. And while I suppose it might be interesting to keep the Sollies guessing about the specific maximum range of the Alliance's MDMs, practically speaking it's not really going to matter. The SLN is waking up to MDMs. Since there's a demonstrable two-drive missile, it's not a stretch for them to think of a three-drive missile either. So they'll know that the Alliance could have a power flight range in excess of 60 million kilometers, even if they don't know the exact numbers.

Second, if the Admiralty wanted to keep that information secret, they wouldn't have sent along the pods to use them. The best way to keep the secret is to rendering one incapable of revealing it. So since they did send the pods, then their presence means you're allowed to use them if the situation warrants it. I reckon being outnumbered 2 to one in hulls (and far, far worse in terms of tonnage) qualifies as one of those "in case of emergency, break glass" cases.

Duckk - there is textev that SOME sollies are already thinking about 3 drive missiles. I can't recall their names, but the two junior intel analysts back on Earth HAVE discussed the possibility of Manticore having put 3 drives in some of their missiles.

MuonNeutrino wrote:So, first off, I'm going to drop out of hyper in system X *not* on a least-time course towards the threatened extraction platform. Shifting a couple light-minutes up off the ecliptic along the hyper limit doesn't add much distance to any target that's more than a couple light-minutes inside that limit, but it neatly puts the kibosh on anyone trying to lie in wait (whether in real-space or in hyper) right where they expect me to come in. Second, I'm going to bring in a good chunk of velocity and try to get inside the hyper limit quickly, again to mitigate the chance of getting dropped in on.

I agree with deviating from the least time course. But you're not going to be able to bring in much velocity.

Even if you only popped up into the Alpha band (unlikely, even for a 2 hour flight) you'd still lose 92% of your velocity upon exit. And with only 2 hours to work with you could only build up around .16c (assuming no grav waves) - which then gets chopped down to about 4,000 km/s. Or to put it another way; equivalent to touch over 9 minutes worth of Roland acceleration.

Still, any pounce from Hyper suffers the same velocity drop; and almost certainly didn't have the couple hours building up velocity. So they'd still going to be moving slower than you are. You can avoid energy range, but might not be able to get out of their missile envelope before they're able to pounce. (Assuming there's anyone waiting to pounce in the first place)

munroburton wrote:

kzt wrote:Due to plot, once you activate the tractors on a pod you will burn the pod reactor out in a week. Now it's possible that some of you might have some idea how to sidestep that but no.

Now I know why System B is only 2 hours away from System A.

I admit, globbing the ships was forced - hence the reason I created the PASS container which just arrived - giving an excuse for all the Rolands to be in 1 system to top off from the PASS. Tactically a mistake, but what are the chances the enemy would attack now? (statement on record before every lost battle.)

As for the distance, if you have the systems much more than 2 hours apart (yes, again a narrative stretch), the BCs have already reached the habitable planet and are trashing the infrastructure before any response arrives, and then you have to root them out of the inner system.

As for the flatpacks, The tractor chews through the reactor's reaction mass in a "tactical life' of more than a day, but less than a week. The way to extend them is you can tow several of them using your ship's tractors (old school) and not engage their reactors, allowing you to carry them beyond the "tactical life" of the tractor, however, you proabaly will lose max accel, as some may be outside the compensator field. You can't haul the Roland's max of 15, but you can probably haul 5-6.

Alternately, you can rotate the ship's tractors between them, giving a maximum usage of up to a 30 day lifespan (they have enough reactor mass for up to 1 months in system defense mode iirc), but alternating the flatpack tractor will probably cut into their life for > 1 week of life per day of internal tractor usage, so you can probably carry the max of 15 pods for about 10-12 days. In addition, you will probably have to carry some ship tractored pods outside the compensator field, slowing the ship down.

exiledtoIA wrote:Duckk - there is textev that SOME sollies are already thinking about 3 drive missiles. I can't recall their names, but the two junior intel analysts back on Earth HAVE discussed the possibility of Manticore having put 3 drives in some of their missiles.

That's my point. Three-drive missiles aren't in the realm of impossibility anymore for the SLN. Once they extrapolate from the numbers they already have, they can hit on a reasonably accurate estimate of the Alliance's full range.