[HFQ] SPOILERS -- Why didn't Merlin?

Maybe it's time to leak the news about Clyntahn's election. His supporters will ignore it. People who are attached to the Church structure but wavering about the jihad would be glad of a legal reason to reject Clyntahnism.

Unfortunately the only reason WE know the election is rigged is thanks to a MWW post. For Safehold there is no proof and those who had suspicions within the temple have been purged, including Clyntahn's opponent for the position of grand inquisitor.

Maybe the temple has a record of it, the text has mentioned several times the ability of the inquisition to spy using "angel" powers. Which could allow the discovery after the war, for this current war though it is of questionable use, Merlin wants the break the power of the CoGA and I am not certain allowing the CoGA to foist all the blame on Clyntahn serves that purpose.

vsimco wrote:Yes I got the book early and about 3/4 of the way through. Long time lurker of these forums.

I'm still reading the book, but the part I want to discuss happens after the "mudbank" sea battle.












-----SPOILERS----------












----You HAVE BEEN WARNED







So the Dohlarns got themselves a "ironclad" and I can't just help that it doesn't really make a whole lot sense. Oh I understand the crew died, but the thing was rigged to blow, and I can't really understand why Merlin couldn't have detonated one of his SNARCs to "finish what the crew was planning to do". This is aptly frustrating when the inner circle is discussing what should be done if the "prisoners" get sent to inquisition again... that Merlin might blow the magazine if they are sent by ship.

I can't help but think the situation is forced by glorious author for the other side to have a fighting chance on the navy side. It seems forced.

Remember that Merlin's stated purpose is to raise the technological level of humans on SAFEHOLD, necessarily including both sides of the present conflict.

Well for it could simply not occur to them at the time. Merlin may also have some moral objections to mass killing people in such a way, at the beginning using the SNARC's like that was no-no. As of HFQ Merlin is willing to hunt down inquisitors but has done so personally indicating that Merlin does not consider SNARC's for carrying out this either.

CJK wrote:Unfortunately the only reason WE know the election is rigged is thanks to a MWW post. For Safehold there is no proof and those who had suspicions within the temple have been purged, including Clyntahn's opponent for the position of grand inquisitor.

Maybe the temple has a record of it, the text has mentioned several times the ability of the inquisition to spy using "angel" powers. Which could allow the discovery after the war, for this current war though it is of questionable use, Merlin wants the break the power of the CoGA and I am not certain allowing the CoGA to foist all the blame on Clyntahn serves that purpose.

Does someone else remember the textev on the subject? I have a hazy memory of living characters reflecting on the fact that Rayno counted the votes.

Expert snuggler wrote:

CJK wrote:Unfortunately the only reason WE know the election is rigged is thanks to a MWW post. For Safehold there is no proof and those who had suspicions within the temple have been purged, including Clyntahn's opponent for the position of grand inquisitor.

Maybe the temple has a record of it, the text has mentioned several times the ability of the inquisition to spy using "angel" powers. Which could allow the discovery after the war, for this current war though it is of questionable use, Merlin wants the break the power of the CoGA and I am not certain allowing the CoGA to foist all the blame on Clyntahn serves that purpose.

Does someone else remember the textev on the subject? I have a hazy memory of living characters reflecting on the fact that Rayno counted the votes.

Go back in HFQ between Nynian and Merlin when she is telling her story to Merlin. I think it's there...

Don

I would expect that it's actually rather _less_ so in places like Dohlar. Being hung out to dry does tend to get you thinking on "why", and there aren't actually all that many people in Dohlar who've been hung out to dry on Clyntahn's orders. Yet.

I've noticed this in several thread recently: people are assuming that not just events but the hows and whys of those events are much more generally known than is going to be the case. This is not a world with CNN chattering away in every living room. In fact, only those to whom things are happening or who can watch them happen know what's going on - and they won't always know why. The further away you are from the happenings, the more closely the bad news is being held, and the less clearly the responsibility incumbs on one or a few individuals within the Church.

n7axw wrote:One thing that may eventually make it easier to break the Temple's hold on its client states is that many are starting to make a distinction between Zhasphar Clyntahn and God.

Witness Nybar's ruminations in the aftermath of that parley at Fairkyn about how many in the AOG are making that distinction and no longer assuming that Clyntahn speaks for God.

If that's true for the AOG, how much more so in places like Dohlar. The more that sort of thinking deepens and becomes more pervasive, the easier it becomes to break from the Temple...

Don

That island was taken as one step in playing a certain person like a trout on 5-pound test.

Nonetheless, I'm sure that inventive people like the ICN will come up with a practical use for it. Unless, of course, they decide to make their original intentions evident.

WeberFan wrote:

evilauthor wrote:Reading through HFQ again, I think it's actually stated that the Cities can't actually reach Gorath from the ICN's current bases. They simply don't have the coal bunkerage for it.

Still, having invulnerable steam powered ironclads with breach loading guns wandering around in Dohlar's neighborhood (and can possibly turn Dreadnought into swiss cheese) might lend the "Let's go neutral" faction some political weight.

I was thinking that too - that the Cities can't reach Gorath due to lack of bunkerage...

Then I remembered Yairley seizing the island in the entrance to Saram Bay. By my reckoning that's about 1/3 of the way from Claw island to Gorath. Textev in HFQ states that the island is considered irrelevant by all concerned. But IMHO, it would make a perfect coaling station or a perfect jumping-off point (or both) for an invasion of Jack's Land, Cliff Island, or Whale Island. Seizing one or more of these other (large) islands in the Gulf of Dohlar would provide an even more advanced base / coaling station. By my reckoning, Jack's Land is roughly 800 miles closer to Gorath than the island in Saram Bay, and Whale Island is about 1,100 miles closer. I could see a string of reinforced ICA naval outposts extending right up the middle of the Gulf of Dohlar from which ICA ironclads (and more conventional galleons and commerce raiders) shut off all waterborne traffic in the Gulf of Dohlar. Yairley didn't just take and reinforce the island for the heck of it...

Prior to the purge of the vicarage there was a musing suspicion mentioned (book 3) but MWW actually has a post on this forum about it. That is where I learned of it at least, actual proof is not in the books though but hey if MWW says he did its good enough for me.

The comment about the information not traveling well is well taken, there are countervailing considerations on this though. First being the semaphore system allowing for at least some fast information travel, one which everyone takes advantage of. The second is how much more literate people are in general, even coming out of an age where the inquisition discouraged it. This is in part to the more efficient farming Safehold has, plus extensive transport systems, excellent health care and general hygiene. This allows for a much larger middle class (and clergy for that matter) which will be noticeably more aware of events.

Now the fact the CoGA has control of the semaphore helps them greatly, as well as the authority they have from the writ. That said the events don't have to be that widespread in some cases, Clyntahn's actions are also scrutinized by national leaders, not just the man in the street. Leaders are not going to buy the propaganda unless they choose to, they have spies of their own. In this regard, especially given how much power the upper class citizens have I would expect them to be far more informed. After all at this time not knowing what the undercurrents are can be deadly for anyone with an insane inquisition.

Louis R wrote:I would expect that it's actually rather _less_ so in places like Dohlar. Being hung out to dry does tend to get you thinking on "why", and there aren't actually all that many people in Dohlar who've been hung out to dry on Clyntahn's orders. Yet.

I've noticed this in several thread recently: people are assuming that not just events but the hows and whys of those events are much more generally known than is going to be the case. This is not a world with CNN chattering away in every living room. In fact, only those to whom things are happening or who can watch them happen know what's going on - and they won't always know why. The further away you are from the happenings, the more closely the bad news is being held, and the less clearly the responsibility incumbs on one or a few individuals within the Church.

n7axw wrote:One thing that may eventually make it easier to break the Temple's hold on its client states is that many are starting to make a distinction between Zhasphar Clyntahn and God.

Witness Nybar's ruminations in the aftermath of that parley at Fairkyn about how many in the AOG are making that distinction and no longer assuming that Clyntahn speaks for God.

If that's true for the AOG, how much more so in places like Dohlar. The more that sort of thinking deepens and becomes more pervasive, the easier it becomes to break from the Temple...

Don

True. But it is also true that Dohlar has just lost an army and is facing severe military pressure from two directions as a consequence of its participation in the Jihad. Prior to this it lost a large galley fleet at Armageddon Reef....all of this while fighting for God and Mother Church. Lots of sons, brothers and husbands not coming home. Eventually it has to get old and start raising questions about whose side God is really on.

Don