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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS) | |
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by martin » Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:08 am | |
martin
Posts: 66
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Almost everyone up to and including Clyntahn, thinks the CoGA may lose the jihad. And that was before both church armies in Siddermark were destroyed. So the foundations really are quivering and that will dawn on Thirsk. Or maybe it has already. Especially now he meets Merlin.
The KHs make that statement. The Cities don't have the range to sail all the way to the Temple. For me the KHs are the definitive statement that the CoGA will lose. That's probably why our devious host had them set back a few months in HFQ. martin |
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS) | |
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by n7axw » Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:38 am | |
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Quite to the contrary, Thirsk must be told that his family survives immediately if for no other reason than to get him to stop drinking himself into oblivion. He needs hope and a reason to continue. Withholding that info would be acting in bad faith and have a poor result later. In his shoes, I know I would be pissed off. Don When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS) | |
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by PeterZ » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:28 pm | |
PeterZ
Posts: 6432
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@CJK
I disagree. The Cities can demolish the Dohlaran coastal cities, but that might not be sufficient to persuade Dohlarans of Charisian invincibility. After all God had stepped in that guided the RDN to victory each time the ICN threatened Dohlar in its home waters. God has let the AoG be destroyed, all the nations that attacked Charis and launched the jihad have suffered devastating reversals except Dohlar. Yes the Army of Justice was destroyed but the Dohlaran elements survived where EVERY other invading jihadi army and navy has not only been defeated but destroyed. What makes Dohlar so special in God's eyes? The arrival of the Haaralds will make the connection abundantly clear. God is not offended by these innovations from Charis because he would counter such blatant demonic influences if they were indeed demonic. Since He is not offended, it follows that Charis' advantage stems from a God approved set of innovations. Dohlar's blessings, then, might stem from their adoption of similar innovations. The King Haaralds will persuade Dohlar to leave the jihad not because they show Charisian invincibility, but because they offer massive evidence that God does not disapprove of Charis. If that is true, than the jihad and the Inquisition are wrong. Loyal children of God cannot support what God himself does not. |
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS) | |
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by StealthSeeker » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:10 pm | |
StealthSeeker
Posts: 240
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I disagree, at least to a point, as no navy (or air-force) is ever going to win a war. Feet on the ground in armies and marines will win the war. Navies will just keep them bottled up. In that, the navies will keep Charis safe, but they won't win the war. -
- I think therefore I am.... I think |
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS) | |
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by StealthSeeker » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:20 pm | |
StealthSeeker
Posts: 240
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So, you are telling me that if the first thing I told you was that I had your whole family, your every thought there after wouldn't be some version of what you had to do for their captors to keep them safe? You wouldn't feel as though your family wasn't being used as a lever to persuade you to make very agreeable choices for their captors? You wouldn't feel that you were being badly manipulated? No. To live up to the promise to the children, that they would not be used to manipulate their father, you could not tell Thirsk that they were alive as the first thing in your conversation. -
- I think therefore I am.... I think |
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS) | |
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by JeffEngel » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:45 pm | |
JeffEngel
Posts: 2074
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Don's telling you that, before Thirsk will be able to care about the rest, he has to know his family is safe. And in order to trust someone who, while he's made a decent impression the one time they've met, as has the liege he serves, has nevertheless been on the other side of a bitter war for years, Thirsk is going to have to go without hearing about great big obvious things like his family being in Charisian care and protection as something that was kept from him til other stuff was worked out. It's possible that the shadow of possible manipulation will hover over the rest of the discussion if it is brought up first - granted. But it's necessary to get Thirsk out of a suicidal funk and engaged in life again, so that's a risk to suck up. And he cannot be jerked around by the shock of seeing Merlin, discussions about stuff he's not prepared right now to care about, and then, oh yeah, now that you "trust" us, surprise, your family's fine. He won't trust them after that. |
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS) | |
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by n7axw » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:01 pm | |
n7axw
Posts: 5997
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The very first step to behaving honorably is to tell the truth and let the chips fall where they will. Then it is to keep the promises you make. Finally it is to deal fairly with others by keeping your side of a deal. There is no way that I could imagine his children not wanting their father to know that they along with his grandchildren are safe nor is there anyway that he would not want to know that. In fact not telling him would be both cruel and manipulative. I know there can be exceptions to what I said above when to tell the truth in the wrong context could bring harm to innocent or vulnerable people. In Thirsk's case knowing that his fanily is safe and out of danger will ease his mind and ernergize him to do what is necessary rather than drinking himself to oblivion. To avoid being manipulative, Merlin guarantees his family's safety no matter what and invites him to do what his conscience tells him is the right thing to do, including rejoining his family if that is what he wants. I think he could offer Thirsk support from seijins for any choice not detrimental to the EOC. But the operative point is that Thirsk no longer has to make his choices worrying about his family. They are safe. Don When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS) | |
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by StealthSeeker » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:03 pm | |
StealthSeeker
Posts: 240
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I think that Thirsk has enough moral and personal strength that he will get out of his drunken stupor by himself eventually. He, after all, is contemplating how soon he can get back on active duty, back to the "family" he does have left, his men in the navy. After that main conversation had taken place I would broach the subject of his family being alive by saying that there was something I needed to tell him that I wish could have been the very first thing I had said to him. However, to keep a promise that had been made I was unable to divulge that information until after we had our conversation. And then I would tell him that the promise I was keeping was one made to his alive and well family, to not use them as leverage to manipulate him into being a stooge for Charis. In that context I don't think that Thirsk would hold my actions against me. He may even respect me more because I kept my promise to his family. -
- I think therefore I am.... I think |
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS) | |
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by Peter2 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:51 pm | |
Peter2
Posts: 371
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Totally agree. Not to tell him would be cruel, manipulative, and dishonest into the bargain. Even worse, it would be counterproductive. Putting myself in Thirsk's position, I think to myself when I finally find out: "This guy in front of me has my family safe and sound and leaves me thinking they're still dead???!!!" Depending on my self-control, I may or may not make a serious attempt to tear his head off – seijin or not. But for certain sure, I am going to lose respect both for him and everything he stands for. |
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS) | |
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by StealthSeeker » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:59 pm | |
StealthSeeker
Posts: 240
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And I will repeat to you and Don what I posted a little bit earlier. I think that Thirsk has enough moral and personal strength that he will get out of his drunken stupor by himself eventually. He, after all, is contemplating how soon he can get back on active duty, back to the "family" he does have left, his men in the navy. After that main conversation had taken place I would broach the subject of his family being alive by saying that there was something I needed to tell him that I wish could have been the very first thing I had said to him. However, to keep a promise that had been made I was unable to divulge that information until after we had our conversation. And then I would tell him that the promise I was keeping was one made to his alive and well family, to not use them as leverage to manipulate him into being a stooge for Charis. In that context I don't think that Thirsk would hold my actions against me. He may even respect me more because I kept my promise to his family. -
- I think therefore I am.... I think |
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