Steel Thistle silk - uses

RFC has said that an ironclad could deal with the defenses of Gorath, and obviously one could probably destroy a large portion of Thirsk's fleet if it caught them at anchor in Gorath Bay.

Unfortunately I expect that Thirsk will have his fleet scattered to protect the two canals that have been so crucial in supplying the AoG. (Although the Salthar canal is of very limited use to the CoGA now that the Desnairan army has been destroyed.) I expect he'll have a good portion of his fleet protecting the Gulf of Tanshar, the Bay of Bess, and the port city of Dairynth, which is crucial to supplying Kaitswyrth.

Since Admiral Rock Point is likely to take command of the King Haarahlds that will soon be headed for the Gulf of Dohlar, the ICN will finally have a commander on the spot who is a member of the inner circle, which is the first time since the end of AMF that's been the case. So he'll be able to subtly direct his fleet where to find the last ships of the NoG, and the Haarahlds will be able to blow them to smithereens from a range at which the NoG can't even reach them when they shoot back. I realize that a ship isn't exactly the most stable platform for long range accuracy, but the Haarahlds are the largest ships ever built so they're more stable than any ships in history, and once they blow a few NoG galleons away with a single shot, the survivors will strike their colors as quickly as possible. (Or as quickly as they can shoot the inquisitors on board, or toss them to the krakens!)

Once they get into Gorath Bay, their 7 mile range IIRC will enable them to shell a good part of the city if needs be to get it to surrender. I hope the royal palace is within range - after Merlin kidnaps King Ronald so he can be tried for war crimes, leveling the place would help emphasize that you do not turn Charisian prisoners over to the Inquisition!!!!

Nimue will be busy rescuing Thirsk's family from the "protection" of the Inquisition as the shelling begins of course...

A few of the new city class ironclads ought to be sent to help obliterate the ship building facilities along the entire coast of Desnair. It's past time that the waterfronts are burned to the ground, and last remaining ships of the NoG hiding in Desnairan ports reduced to splinters . I think having their capital city shelled and the waterfront destroyed will convince Dohlar that the war effort is futile - especially with the ICN blockading the Gulf of Dohlar until they get around to destroying the Desnairan ports there as well...

The days of the Desnairans being a nuisance on the seas will soon be coming to a close. Same for the entire Jihad.

Getting back on topic, according to Tom Kratman's books which are available on Baen and very entertaining, layering several levels of silk with a small space between each layer makes a fairly effective bullet-proof vest. I imagine that steel thistle silk would be even more effective - plus vests of this sort are very light compared to ceramic or battle steel armor.

I'm surprised that the ICA hasn't introduced something of this sort already, but having large amounts of steel thistle silk fabric available is a fairly new development, so I suppose they've had to prioritize how to use the supplies available. 400,000+ vests will require a lot of fabric and manufacturing time.

MTO wrote:For almost completely unrelated reasons, I was recently reading on Wikipedia about plaster of Paris... So, plaster casts entered medicinal use in the 1800s, based on things noticed by doctors in the late 1700s... I don't think it was the first composite ever used, but certainly an early one. Anyhow, I bring it up because it seems likely that, with their advanced medicine, Safeholdians probably know about the advantages of casts. Going from silk+plaster for casts to silk+plaster for lightweight composite armour is not going to be a big stretch. I'm sure they have better ceramics than plaster, too, but I don't know that silk would handle being fired in a kiln when embedded in clay...

Anyhow, long story short, I think they already have all the pieces to make silk composite armour, they just need to connect the dots.

If you can weave steel thistle silk tightly enough to work as ballistic armor I wonder if it might also work as a component of a ship's anti-torpedo / anti-mine defense system. Obviously not as a waterproof divider, hull, or inner holding bulkhead; but placed in the middle of either a void or liquid filled layer (probably within the void layer) to improve their ability to catch fragments and dissipate blast. Unlike even ductile metal you shouldn't have to worry about the blast spalling fragments of the heavy fabric through the next holding bulkhead...

But I don't even know if the KHs are being designed with something like a torpedo defense system below their armor belt. (And a TDS is notoriously impossible to do effectively on coal powered ships because of the incompatible requirements between efficient access to/from coal bunkers and the need for watertight bulkheads)


Though even if you could that may not be the best use of it since each ship would take literal tons of the stuff. So there's probably better uses for that vast amount of steel thistle silk.

What about infantry fortifications? Faster to set up and change than earthworks, lighter to carry than steel armor, and available even in frozen or stony ground that doesn't lend itself to making trenches.

DDHvi wrote:I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been much discussion about possible uses of steel thistle silk, even with the cost problem. IIRC many of the early balloons used silk to keep the weight down.

One item worth considering: at present, some groups are trying out parasails to reduce fuel consumption when the wind conditions are right. Why couldn't someone who is checking out the best uses for STS in sails think of a steerable spinnaker, which is basically what a parasail is. Also, a parasail powered ship would have less leverage from the sails, therefore less heeling of the hull. Possibly someone with sailing understanding could outline the possibilities?

When the point of heavier than air flying craft is reached, it would be good for cloth covered wings. At present some small slow aircraft are using parasails instead of wings. Even before that, some form of dirigible or zeppelin design could make good use of it.

No mention has been made of ropes using that material - it might be a bit before the cost is low enough to allow that, but there could be places where the extra strength would be worth the higher cost.

Other ideas?

The problem with silk, and any other woven cloth for a sail is its air permeability. True, silk fibers have a higher tensile yield point and therefore larger sails can be made, but it does not solve the air permeability of the sail itself, be it parasail, hang glider etc. This is where most efficiency is lost. Most hang gliders get their efficiency from using a silicon impregnated cloth over that of just nylon non coated. With the advent of lightweight silnylon many parasails today are vastly superior to older modesl. Not perfect, but darned good. Better yet are Cuben fiber sails.

Today, the best is cuben fiber. A mylar sheet with UHDPE fibers inside for tensile strength and another mylar sheet on the other side of the fibers all bonded together. Air permeability is almost 100% and this is where most of the increase in sailboat efficiency has come from since the days of you name it fiber sailcloth impregnated in oil/tar/wax etc.

For an increase in sails efficiency air permeability for Charis, they need a silicon or flexible UV compliant plastic. Until this happens, Thistle silk is not going to help them at all.

McGuiness wrote:Getting back on topic, according to Tom Kratman's books which are available on Baen and very entertaining, layering several levels of silk with a small space between each layer makes a fairly effective bullet-proof vest. I imagine that steel thistle silk would be even more effective - plus vests of this sort are very light compared to ceramic or battle steel armor.

I'm surprised that the ICA hasn't introduced something of this sort already, but having large amounts of steel thistle silk fabric available is a fairly new development, so I suppose they've had to prioritize how to use the supplies available. 400,000+ vests will require a lot of fabric and manufacturing time.

If you layered it with balsawood(its Charis equivalent) in between layers it would work a whole lot better.

Really no reason they could not make silicon carbide waffers and then sew into a vest as they do making dragon skin today. Expensive, but doable.

Relax wrote:
The problem with silk, and any other woven cloth for a sail is its air permeability. True, silk fibers have a higher tensile yield point and therefore larger sails can be made, but it does not solve the air permeability of the sail itself, be it parasail, hang glider etc. This is where most efficiency is lost. Most hang gliders get their efficiency from using a silicon impregnated cloth over that of just nylon non coated. With the advent of lightweight silnylon many parasails today are vastly superior to older modesl. Not perfect, but darned good. Better yet are Cuben fiber sails.

Today, the best is cuben fiber. A mylar sheet with UHDPE fibers inside for tensile strength and another mylar sheet on the other side of the fibers all bonded together. Air permeability is almost 100% and this is where most of the increase in sailboat efficiency has come from since the days of you name it fiber sailcloth impregnated in oil/tar/wax etc.

For an increase in sails efficiency air permeability for Charis, they need a silicon or flexible UV compliant plastic. Until this happens, Thistle silk is not going to help them at all.

I am reasonably certain that I remember reading in a much earlier Safehold book, shortly after using a "gin" to get out the unwanted bits was introduced, where it was discussed about using thistle silk in sails. I believe I remember them saying that it held the wind very well, much better than what they normally would use. The problem was that even with the new automated way of processing thistle silk it would be prohibitively expensive.

McGuiness wrote:RFC has said that an ironclad could deal with the defenses of Gorath, and obviously one could probably destroy a large portion of Thirsk's fleet if it caught them at anchor in Gorath Bay.

Unfortunately I expect that Thirsk will have his fleet scattered to protect the two canals that have been so crucial in supplying the AoG. (Although the Salthar canal is of very limited use to the CoGA now that the Desnairan army has been destroyed.) I expect he'll have a good portion of his fleet protecting the Gulf of Tanshar, the Bay of Bess, and the port city of Dairynth, which is crucial to supplying Kaitswyrth.

Since Admiral Rock Point is likely to take command of the King Haarahlds that will soon be headed for the Gulf of Dohlar, the ICN will finally have a commander on the spot who is a member of the inner circle, which is the first time since the end of AMF that's been the case. So he'll be able to subtly direct his fleet where to find the last ships of the NoG, and the Haarahlds will be able to blow them to smithereens from a range at which the NoG can't even reach them when they shoot back. I realize that a ship isn't exactly the most stable platform for long range accuracy, but the Haarahlds are the largest ships ever built so they're more stable than any ships in history, and once they blow a few NoG galleons away with a single shot, the survivors will strike their colors as quickly as possible. (Or as quickly as they can shoot the inquisitors on board, or toss them to the krakens!)

Once they get into Gorath Bay, their 7 mile range IIRC will enable them to shell a good part of the city if needs be to get it to surrender. I hope the royal palace is within range - after Merlin kidnaps King Ronald so he can be tried for war crimes, leveling the place would help emphasize that you do not turn Charisian prisoners over to the Inquisition!!!!

Nimue will be busy rescuing Thirsk's family from the "protection" of the Inquisition as the shelling begins of course...

A few of the new city class ironclads ought to be sent to help obliterate the ship building facilities along the entire coast of Desnair. It's past time that the waterfronts are burned to the ground, and last remaining ships of the NoG hiding in Desnairan ports reduced to splinters . I think having their capital city shelled and the waterfront destroyed will convince Dohlar that the war effort is futile - especially with the ICN blockading the Gulf of Dohlar until they get around to destroying the Desnairan ports there as well...

The days of the Desnairans being a nuisance on the seas will soon be coming to a close. Same for the entire Jihad.

Did you read the same book I did? Or is this post all done in a sarcasm that I am failing to catch on to?

There are already 2 "inner circle" navy personal in the Gulf of Dohlar.

A large part of the CoGA navy was gutted in attacking one iron clad ship that was armed with muzzle loading guns. A lot of the Dohlarian navy in currently in port for repairs.

Even the 6 inch breach loading guns that the river class gunboats are now armed with can shoot 7 miles.

Thirsk's family has already been rescued.

A couple of "city" class iron side ships have already destroyed everything on the Desnarian east coast. They had done such a complete job that they were considering sending them to the Gulf of Dohlar. The Desnarians are no longer a threat at sea.

Did _you_ look at the date of the post you're replying to?

I believe that if you do, you'll find the answer to your question.

StealthSeeker wrote:

McGuiness wrote:RFC has said that an ironclad could deal with the defenses of Gorath, and obviously one could probably destroy a large portion of Thirsk's fleet if it caught them at anchor in Gorath Bay.

Unfortunately I expect that Thirsk will have his fleet scattered to protect the two canals that have been so crucial in supplying the AoG. (Although the Salthar canal is of very limited use to the CoGA now that the Desnairan army has been destroyed.) I expect he'll have a good portion of his fleet protecting the Gulf of Tanshar, the Bay of Bess, and the port city of Dairynth, which is crucial to supplying Kaitswyrth.

Since Admiral Rock Point is likely to take command of the King Haarahlds that will soon be headed for the Gulf of Dohlar, the ICN will finally have a commander on the spot who is a member of the inner circle, which is the first time since the end of AMF that's been the case. So he'll be able to subtly direct his fleet where to find the last ships of the NoG, and the Haarahlds will be able to blow them to smithereens from a range at which the NoG can't even reach them when they shoot back. I realize that a ship isn't exactly the most stable platform for long range accuracy, but the Haarahlds are the largest ships ever built so they're more stable than any ships in history, and once they blow a few NoG galleons away with a single shot, the survivors will strike their colors as quickly as possible. (Or as quickly as they can shoot the inquisitors on board, or toss them to the krakens!)

Once they get into Gorath Bay, their 7 mile range IIRC will enable them to shell a good part of the city if needs be to get it to surrender. I hope the royal palace is within range - after Merlin kidnaps King Ronald so he can be tried for war crimes, leveling the place would help emphasize that you do not turn Charisian prisoners over to the Inquisition!!!!

Nimue will be busy rescuing Thirsk's family from the "protection" of the Inquisition as the shelling begins of course...

A few of the new city class ironclads ought to be sent to help obliterate the ship building facilities along the entire coast of Desnair. It's past time that the waterfronts are burned to the ground, and last remaining ships of the NoG hiding in Desnairan ports reduced to splinters . I think having their capital city shelled and the waterfront destroyed will convince Dohlar that the war effort is futile - especially with the ICN blockading the Gulf of Dohlar until they get around to destroying the Desnairan ports there as well...

The days of the Desnairans being a nuisance on the seas will soon be coming to a close. Same for the entire Jihad.

Did you read the same book I did? Or is this post all done in a sarcasm that I am failing to catch on to?

There are already 2 "inner circle" navy personal in the Gulf of Dohlar.

A large part of the CoGA navy was gutted in attacking one iron clad ship that was armed with muzzle loading guns. A lot of the Dohlarian navy in currently in port for repairs.

Even the 6 inch breach loading guns that the river class gunboats are now armed with can shoot 7 miles.

Thirsk's family has already been rescued.

A couple of "city" class iron side ships have already destroyed everything on the Desnarian east coast. They had done such a complete job that they were considering sending them to the Gulf of Dohlar. The Desnarians are no longer a threat at sea.