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Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOILERS

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Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOILERS
Post by pokermind   » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:42 am

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A lot of stuff is pointing at Thursk, but what if Rainbow Waters and his peasant army do a 180? :shock:

Imagine if Clyntan orders Rainbow Waters arrest and the peasant army revolts, a freed Rainbow Waters joins the revolution. Clyntan like the Czar of Russia discovers an instant collapse of the front, and serfs no longer wishing to remain serfs. One of the main tenets of the revolution is the fallibility of mother church, Charis is right! Might be just the surprise our favorite Mad Wizard pulls out of the hat, :twisted:

When said army gets back to Herchong, things they will be a changing.

Poker
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"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOIL
Post by Easternmystic   » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:10 am

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pokermind wrote:A lot of stuff is pointing at Thursk, but what if Rainbow Waters and his peasant army do a 180? :shock:

Imagine if Clyntan orders Rainbow Waters arrest and the peasant army revolts, a freed Rainbow Waters joins the revolution. Clyntan like the Czar of Russia discovers an instant collapse of the front, and serfs no longer wishing to remain serfs. One of the main tenets of the revolution is the fallibility of mother church, Charis is right! Might be just the surprise our favorite Mad Wizard pulls out of the hat, :twisted:

When said army gets back to Herchong, things they will be a changing.

Poker


Anyone with power From Harchong is a master of oblique references. They never respond with a direct affirmative or negative. Yo understand the meaning of any correspondence one must know the context for the messages and the correspondents prior relationship. Any correspondence that Rainbow Waters sends the church will have enough wriggle room for him to have substantial leeway in how he implements any commands.

there is also the fact that Clyntahn trusts Harchong. He will give them much more rope than anyone else. Rayno will also be there to argue in favor of anything someone from Harchong does. It will be a long time before Clyntahn moves against anyone from Harchong. He will blame everyone else charged with supporting The Harchong forces first.
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Re: Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOIL
Post by CJK   » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:31 am

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There may also not be much room for Clntahn to move against Earl Rainbow Waters in the first place. Earl Hennet of the Desnair army for instance was too well connected for the CoGA to hand over to Clyntahn. So I would be VERY surprised if Rainbow Waters who is vastly more competent could not do so as well.

I think it is very unlikely that Rainbow Waters would change sides given the kind of political connections required to be a Harchong commander in the first place. I also think he would much harder to defeat as well. His inquisitor does not appear to interfere in his command and he also appears adept at word games. In fact I would go to say he is Clyntahn's ideal commander, as like Rayno he is able to construe orders to fit reality while ensuring reality does not intrude too much on his superiors (Clyntahn).
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Re: Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOIL
Post by Dathi   » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:06 pm

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I don't know about Rainbow Waters, but ...
We have millions of Harchong serfs in the army who are desperately oppressed.

What if the Alliance offers them free land? (Much of Siddarmark got depopulated - and there's uninhabited islands out there still.)

I could see half the Harchongese common soldiers getting up and moving to the Alliance.


CJK wrote:There may also not be much room for Clntahn to move against Earl Rainbow Waters in the first place. Earl Hennet of the Desnair army for instance was too well connected for the CoGA to hand over to Clyntahn. So I would be VERY surprised if Rainbow Waters who is vastly more competent could not do so as well.

I think it is very unlikely that Rainbow Waters would change sides given the kind of political connections required to be a Harchong commander in the first place. I also think he would much harder to defeat as well. His inquisitor does not appear to interfere in his command and he also appears adept at word games. In fact I would go to say he is Clyntahn's ideal commander, as like Rayno he is able to construe orders to fit reality while ensuring reality does not intrude too much on his superiors (Clyntahn).
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Re: Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOIL
Post by martin   » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:57 pm

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A few facts bear on this.

1) Rainbow Waters is an aristocrat, not a peasant.

2) Rayno doesn't like what he has done with 'The Mighty Host...."

3) The Mighty Host is the only Temple army with any realistic chance of standing up to Charis. If they turn to the Alliance, there's not much of story.
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Re: Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOIL
Post by pokermind   » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:55 pm

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martin wrote:A few facts bear on this.

1) Rainbow Waters is an aristocrat, not a peasant.

2) Rayno doesn't like what he has done with 'The Mighty Host...."

3) The Mighty Host is the only Temple army with any realistic chance of standing up to Charis. If they turn to the Alliance, there's not much of story.


1) who is unpopular among the other aristocrats, and this would not be the first peasant revolt led by an aristocrat.

2) you don't think Rainbow Waters does not know this.

3) The war ends one way or another in the next book, by Weber's timetable so your point is?

Poker
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"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOIL
Post by CJK   » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:14 pm

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We have no text evidence of Rainbow Waters being unpopular at all within the Harchong nobility. Only that Rayno hates the changes he is implementing and is trying to undermine his efforts. Much of that resistance has to do with how it is affecting his own archbishopric, therefore it should not be widespread. Remember this is a Harchong army, meaning that the commander has to have connections and high rank to even get the post. That he is the fifth commander of this army does sort of indicate that the changes made to the army are deeply unpopular but not the commander himself.

@ Dathi at this point their is no reason for Charis to make such an offer, nor is it really that practical. First these are Harchong peasants who are deeply devout and second how would Charis make an offer like that and be believed? The Harchongese have no yardstick to measure how Charis stands by its word (or how much Clyntahn lies) given that they would have seen very little of the jihad.

As for using them to destabilize Harchong, that is going to happen anyway. The rifle pretty much beats out all other available weapons until you get the artillery and tanks. After all after the war with several million rifles made it is fairly easy for a few to find their way into a serf's hands. At which point his noble master will probably be tasting lead pretty soon.
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Re: Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOIL
Post by pokermind   » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:31 pm

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IIRC on character mentioned he was a prime candidate for assassination by other nobles, I have the audio book and can't give reference, part of being legally blind 8-) .
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOIL
Post by AClone   » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:10 pm

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I wouldn't be surprised to see the Mighty Host turn around and march back--but because Charis had landed in North Harchong, and was threatening the Empire, instead.
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Re: Misdirection by MWW, Rainbow Waters vs Thursk, HFQ SPOIL
Post by evilauthor   » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:33 am

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AClone wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to see the Mighty Host turn around and march back--but because Charis had landed in North Harchong, and was threatening the Empire, instead.


The problem is that they're a LAND army that travels on foot. If they're recalled to Harchong to defend it against Charisian attacks, then everything will be over one way or another by the time the Mighty Host is even half way back.

Besides which, the Church controls all of their logistics elements. If the Mighty Host doesn't obey orders, they don't get armed, clothed, and fed.
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