Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

I can see Merlin telling him about the rescue of his children and grandchildren and then giving Thirsk The option to leave or to stay and try to rescue Dohlar from the CoGA. The promise has been made not to manipulate Thirsk using his family as leverage so what ever happens has to bee the choice of Thirsk himself.

However, I can't imagine that Merlin won't offer to help him, just a little bit, if Thirsk should choose to stay and help bring down the group of 4. I kind of think that Thirsk will stay, he'll be to honor bound to his navy and country to simply abandon them.

How Thirsk could go about staying alive and work to defeat the CoGA I have no idea.

It's pretty much a given that he'll put Thirsk at ease about his family. Hell, he may even try to put him at ease about his late chief of staff, though this will be difficult and I really don't see how that impacts the grand scheme of things. It would certainly make us, as readers, feel better though, but that's not the same thing is it?

However, I think Merlin will definitely try to manipulate Thirsk in some way. His tactics will probably not focus on leveraging his family in any meaningful way. Instead, I see him throwing some other tidbits of information he may not fully grasp yet. The things that immediately come to mind are the coming seizure of the Silkiah--and it's canal, bridging two forces that were once very far apart--Desnair's withdrawal from the war(similar to Russia and the Brest-Litvost treaty of WW1?), and Dohlar's temporary and fleeting diplomatic advantage from its recent victories.

I also wouldn't be surprised if it points out things similar to Thirsk's "Lighter Moment." Remember that scene where he was pondering the vast differences between the sides if Charis is able to allocate resources and industry to things like lighters when every single piece of metal, currency, etc on Dohlar's (and the Church's) side is being dedicated to the war-effort. What does that mean when comparing their qualities of life, not just for their troops and sailors, but for their people in general? What does that mean for the vast differences in quality of supplies and materiel available to them despite the lengths of the supply line?
Though this conversation I expect to go similar to the one in Shaara's The Last Full Measure where Lincoln and Grant are looking over the vast supply depot behind Grant's army and pondering what would happen if Lee were able to merely see it. Would that sapp Lee so thoroughly that he'd ask for terms months before Appomattox?

I do not think there will be any letters - physical evidence is contraindicated. My guess on the approach is Merlin will say to him, "We saved your family the same way we saved or own men. Where do you want them to go? We will deliver them where you want inside or outside the Charisian Empire. They will not be leverage.

Honor will resonate with Thirsk and he will accept that. What he is going to have trouble with is Merlin in his study. No matter what proposals Merlin brings the alternate is cryogenic storage. He has to know there is something supernatural about Merlin's appearance. I think Thirsk is headed to the Cave. IMO he will not work against his vows but he might stop working actively for the Go4 and his moronic King.

Thirsk now knows to much!

dwileye13 wrote:I do not think there will be any letters - physical evidence is contraindicated. My guess on the approach is Merlin will say to him, "We saved your family the same way we saved or own men. Where do you want them to go? We will deliver them where you want inside or outside the Charisian Empire. They will not be leverage.

Honor will resonate with Thirsk and he will accept that. What he is going to have trouble with is Merlin in his study. No matter what proposals Merlin brings the alternate is cryogenic storage. He has to know there is something supernatural about Merlin's appearance. I think Thirsk is headed to the Cave. IMO he will not work against his vows but he might stop working actively for the Go4 and his moronic King.

Thirsk now knows to much!

He's a seijin. Showing up out of the blue in Delferahk's royal castle and cutting through all the guards and inquisitors on hand is common knowledge. Showing up in Thirsk's study is of a piece with that - it surely rubs in that this Athrawes fellow isn't working with normal limitations, but it's not like Thirsk can blow any whistle on him. Merlin being known to have visited him at all will get Thirsk tortured and killed faster than he's already in store for - that it's clearly evidence of supernatural talents is shrug-worthy by now.

I imagine where Thirsk's family is going is their call, not his, not that they'd likely have different answers. But yes, of course - this seems unanimous, and rightly so - they're not leverage. Well, apart from leverage against Thirsk drinking himself to death - he's back to having something to live for.

I do think evacuation is an offer that would be on the table. An invitation to the Inner Circle is not. Being told enough that he'd have to be invited to it isn't on the table, and there doesn't seem to be an emergency that goes that far to justify it.

But I don't see Thirsk abandoning his men, his nation, or even his monarch. I do see a line of communication opened up for when he's willing to serve his men, nation, and monarch by getting them out of this stupid war.

It's not like the Temple has left him loyal to it anymore. It says something about how much loyalty Mother Church had that it took that much to do it to a man of his honor and conviction - and of course, about how much abuse Clyntahn and friends have been happy to make of that loyalty.

JeffEngel wrote:

dwileye13 wrote:I do not think there will be any letters - physical evidence is contraindicated. My guess on the approach is Merlin will say to him, "We saved your family the same way we saved or own men. Where do you want them to go? We will deliver them where you want inside or outside the Charisian Empire. They will not be leverage.

Honor will resonate with Thirsk and he will accept that. What he is going to have trouble with is Merlin in his study. No matter what proposals Merlin brings the alternate is cryogenic storage. He has to know there is something supernatural about Merlin's appearance. I think Thirsk is headed to the Cave. IMO he will not work against his vows but he might stop working actively for the Go4 and his moronic King.

Thirsk now knows to much!

He's a seijin. Showing up out of the blue in Delferahk's royal castle and cutting through all the guards and inquisitors on hand is common knowledge. Showing up in Thirsk's study is of a piece with that - it surely rubs in that this Athrawes fellow isn't working with normal limitations, but it's not like Thirsk can blow any whistle on him. Merlin being known to have visited him at all will get Thirsk tortured and killed faster than he's already in store for - that it's clearly evidence of supernatural talents is shrug-worthy by now.

I imagine where Thirsk's family is going is their call, not his, not that they'd likely have different answers. But yes, of course - this seems unanimous, and rightly so - they're not leverage. Well, apart from leverage against Thirsk drinking himself to death - he's back to having something to live for.

I do think evacuation is an offer that would be on the table. An invitation to the Inner Circle is not. Being told enough that he'd have to be invited to it isn't on the table, and there doesn't seem to be an emergency that goes that far to justify it.

But I don't see Thirsk abandoning his men, his nation, or even his monarch. I do see a line of communication opened up for when he's willing to serve his men, nation, and monarch by getting them out of this stupid war.

It's not like the Temple has left him loyal to it anymore. It says something about how much loyalty Mother Church had that it took that much to do it to a man of his honor and conviction - and of course, about how much abuse Clyntahn and friends have been happy to make of that loyalty.

Merlin's location is known, jumping across thousands of miles is not an acceptable practice - I believe Thirsk will not be yelling out that the boogie man has appeared in his den but this is a situation that requires management. Thirsk has no loyalty to the Go4 or the Inquisition but he is a Temple Loyalist to the core.

Like I said, the conversation will be an interesting preamble to many things. I do not believe he will be brought into the Circle but that doesn't mean he can't be brought to the cave and but in a Sandaria like situation.

Basically here you are and this is reality, we can put you to sleep or you can get informed. With the knowledge of Merlin's ability to travel across continents in a day he is a risk even drunk!

It's not necessarily true that Thirsk would know when Merlin was and/ or is at any given time. In the past, when he was making personal appearances, he would find a reason to be gone, and try to leave at least a reasonable amount of time to have gotten to where was going. For all we know, he may have left Siddamark weeks before he visited Thirsk.

May need to consider Merlin's timeline a bit more, after all he is ALSO showing his face to the entire Charisian crew as well as Thirsk's family. So expect some cover to be made at least, Nimue (number 2) on the other hand may be harder to explain. If Charis can have sufficient cover for the presence of Merlin at the ship boarding action though he should be covered for the Thirsk visit as it happens a few weeks after the navy confirms ship destruction.

Thirsk is not a candidate for the inner circle or any special knowledge beyond understanding the Merlin is a seijin and that seijins do have special abilities. Sinse that is common knowledge, no special revelation is involved.

What Thirsk must do now once he understands that his family is safe and beyond the inquisition's reach is work out what honor and morality require of him. I believe he could honorably join his family. But I don't think that's going to happen.

So, what happens next? I think that Thirsk understands that one cannot honorably serve evil. The church he yearns for no longer exists, but has become the incarnation of evil. Centuries of corruption have rotted out its core to an extent that it could give birth to something like the G-4 and particularly Zhasphar Clyntahn. Thirsk owes the current incarnation of the church nothing.

What it all comes down to then is what his oaths to the crown and love of his kingdom and the men serving under him honorably require of him. Dohlar, no less than Thirsk himself, has been enlisted in the service of evil. Once this has crystalized for him, then I would suspect that his task becomes extricating Dohlar from the service of the church. That would be the most honorable service he could render crown and country. Whether or not he survives the attempt is an open question.

It could be that he has this discussion with Merlin. But I suspect that he is more than capable of working this through himself.

Don

CJK wrote:May need to consider Merlin's timeline a bit more, after all he is ALSO showing his face to the entire Charisian crew as well as Thirsk's family.

No he didn't. He's specifically described as changing his appearance for the rescue of Thirsk's family.

And in any case, there's little risk of Merlin getting caught traveling long distance too fast. Thirsk is an admiral, not a spy master. There's no reason why he should be kept up to date on Merlin's exact whereabouts. And the Inquisition that WOULD be keeping track of Merlin's location won't hear about his visit to Thirsk unless Thirsk himself tells them.

So unless Merlin does something worldwide newsworthy again too soon, Thirsk won't realize that he traveled to Dohlar by "supernatural" means.

Thirsk knows nothing Gorjah doesn't. Not to mention at least some of the dozens of others who have interacted with the seijin over the last 3 years. The ability to turn up where they can't be, and leave again untraceably, hasn't gone unnoticed.

There are a couple of things about Thirsk's situation that nobody seems to be including in the calculation. First, the Inner Circle seems to be in full agreement with Clyntahn: Thirsk, freed to act as he would, is a very, very dangerous man - and not to them. Already, he has been dangerously silent on the fate of his family. His friends will be as quick to notice that as his enemies. And to draw their own conclusions from it. What he is in a position to do isn't clear - but that he _will_ do, unless he dies before getting back to the fleet, is. Second, the RDN has already demonstrated it's reluctance to send Charisians off to face Clyntahn [and they're not unique in that, BTW, the Army's done it as well]. What do you think is going to happen when it faces sending its own instead? By this time, there won't be a man afloat in Gorath Bay who hasn't heard some sort of first-hand account of the rescue; they _know_ that nothing could have been done that wasn't to prevent it happening, and they know the casualties that were taken in trying anyway. And now the Inquisition wants the survivors? Red flags, anyone?

Which reminds me of a third point: did anybody here think for a moment that either Clyntahn or Rayno believe that Thirsk's family is dead? They _may_ accept that he does, but if so they're watching like hawks for Charis to let him know the truth.

dwileye13 wrote:I do not think there will be any letters - physical evidence is contraindicated. My guess on the approach is Merlin will say to him, "We saved your family the same way we saved or own men. Where do you want them to go? We will deliver them where you want inside or outside the Charisian Empire. They will not be leverage.

Honor will resonate with Thirsk and he will accept that. What he is going to have trouble with is Merlin in his study. No matter what proposals Merlin brings the alternate is cryogenic storage. He has to know there is something supernatural about Merlin's appearance. I think Thirsk is headed to the Cave. IMO he will not work against his vows but he might stop working actively for the Go4 and his moronic King.

Thirsk now knows to much!