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Honorverse ramblings and musings

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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:36 pm

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cthia wrote:Nice analysis Theemile. You even touched on some of the possible considerations inferred by Honor's statement...
It was too good a way to fritter away a numerical advantage and invite defeat in detail, especially if your timing screwed up...

However, in that instance GA ships were attempting to execute the maneuver against their own ships — against whom they had no advantage in accel or missile performance.

It is a tactic that I'd think was exclusively available to an RMN fleet going head-to-head against the Peeps or the SLN, because of...
1) the advantage in accel.
2) the advantage in missile ranges.

Although timing would still be a concern, it would be less of a problem to overcome because of the difference in accel and missile performance.

Which, of course, typifies the concerns regarding the need of the elements of an order of battle to be mercilessly drilled to get niggling little things down as timing, before considered to be a fully integrated unit.

Johnathan_S wrote:Up until the existence of podlayers rather rendered the method moot the acceleration and missile advantage that Manticore enjoyed over Haven was a matter of degrees rather than a massive advantage. (Since MDMs weren't available yet either)

The best accel improvement I can recall before the Harrington-class SD(P)s were laid down was about 15%. In an SD that translates to about a 50g difference (assuming both are running at the same safety rating). If, as the Peeps tended to do, they were willing to run a 10% margin, as opposed to the RMN's 20% that difference shrinks to 8g.

It's enough to ensure that they can't run away from you, but not enough to prevent them from lunging towards one of your sub-formations and enjoying a non-trivial period of local superiority. (Then they can attempt to roll wedge against your other formation and break for the hyper limit)

It's hard to pin them down and prevent them from doing that.


Also, splitting up your formations makes your initial towed pod salvos less effective because dispersing them drastically reduces their ability to simply swamp the enemies defenses and inflict that crucial first salvo damage. That's what softens up their defenses for the rest of the missile duel.

Splitting up like that does provide more angles to attack them from; should you manage to hold them in range of both formations simultaneously, but it reduces your opening towed pod effectiveness, disperses your defenses, and risks getting one formation engaged in detail.

Now splitting up if you can combine it with surprise (a 2nd formation sneaking around at low accel under stealth; or dropping out of hyper within weapons range) can be devastating if it works. (As it almost did against Hamish that one time; 1st Nightengale (?)) But most of the time, if the enemy can see you doing it, it just adds risks without much potential of improved reward.

Thanks for another nice analysis, and spot on I'm sure. I also think that the 'Age of Apollo' makes the tactic unnecessary. It's just that I don't recall any tactical, offensive uses of the accel advantage.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Theemile   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:50 pm

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cthia wrote:Thanks for another nice analysis, and spot on I'm sure. I also think that the 'Age of Apollo' makes the tactic unnecessary. It's just that I don't recall any tactical, offensive uses of the accel advantage.


Yeah, Apollo turns everything on it's head, but it's implications (and uses) still haven't shaken out yet. It's like the laserhead, whose implications really weren't fully realized until ~1910, when the Havenite combatants had enough real battle data to see that their wallers practically never reached energy range of each other, and see that the ever improving laser head become the primary shipkiller for all combatants.

Over the next few years we should see the limitations of Apollo and find out what weapons it pushes off the battlefield (Like the laserhead put the nail in the coffin of the slugthrower defenses, and relegated the E-torp to 5th tier status) and what is developed to counter it.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:41 am

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A bowl of curiosity...

Is the "donkey" the only new tech used in the Battle of Manticore by the Peeps? Am I correct that it is the first and only technology developed by the Peeps that wasn't an "effect" technology — technology born as a result of a need to counter or match Manticoran tech?

For example Shannon's 'Triple Ripple' was devised to counter Manty EW. The LACs were in response to Manty LACs. Towed pods as well. Podships the same. On and on.

The only Lone Ranger Peep technological concept I can recall is the towing of LACs in hyper. Is my curious cat correct?

Wait! Even the 'donkey' is an effect tech isn't it?

Late Edit:

Was Mycroft ever installed in the Beowulf System?
Mycroft was a system defense fire-control platform designed for the Grand Alliance in the 1920s PD.

Honor Harrington first suggested the concept to Sonja Hemphill, as a way to update the Havenite Moriarty system-wide network of dispersed sensor and fire control stations to take advantage of the Mark 23 and Mark 23 E missiles.

Essentially, Mycroft[1] was several dozen Keyhole II platforms parked at various points in a star system. They had to be modified so each one carried its own power plant and other hardware.

The Royal Manticoran Navy planned to have the system installed in the Beowulf System in 1922 PD. (HH13) --wiki

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Dauntless   » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:02 am

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Mycroft was in the process of being built and deployed as of Prince Roger's wedding which is very late on in the last "mainline" honour book A Rising Thunder.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by munroburton   » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:18 am

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cthia wrote:A bowl of curiosity...

Is the "donkey" the only new tech used in the Battle of Manticore by the Peeps? Am I correct that it is the first and only technology developed by the Peeps that wasn't an "effect" technology — technology born as a result of a need to counter or match Manticoran tech?

For example Shannon's 'Triple Ripple' was devised to counter Manty EW. The LACs were in response to Manty LACs. Towed pods as well. Podships the same. On and on.

The only Lone Ranger Peep technological concept I can recall is the towing of LACs in hyper. Is my curious cat correct?

Wait! Even the 'donkey' is an effect tech isn't it?

Late Edit:

Was Mycroft ever installed in the Beowulf System?
Mycroft was a system defense fire-control platform designed for the Grand Alliance in the 1920s PD.

Honor Harrington first suggested the concept to Sonja Hemphill, as a way to update the Havenite Moriarty system-wide network of dispersed sensor and fire control stations to take advantage of the Mark 23 and Mark 23 E missiles.

Essentially, Mycroft[1] was several dozen Keyhole II platforms parked at various points in a star system. They had to be modified so each one carried its own power plant and other hardware.

The Royal Manticoran Navy planned to have the system installed in the Beowulf System in 1922 PD. (HH13) --wiki


The Donkey was a response to Manticoran pods being equipped with a built-in tractor beam running off the built-in power source. The RHN could not do that, so they built a pod that had nothing but tractor beams and used it to drag other regular pods around.

Mycroft is being installed in Beowulf, as per textev at the end of SoF. We don't know yet if that installion will be completed before any more unfortunate incidents.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Theemile   » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:03 pm

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munroburton wrote:
The Donkey was a response to Manticoran pods being equipped with a built-in tractor beam running off the built-in power source. The RHN could not do that, so they built a pod that had nothing but tractor beams and used it to drag other regular pods around.

<snip>


The other major Havenite "tech" at Manticore was the rotating control links used to control 3x the normal # of missiles the Havenites had control links for. I don't think it was entirely new tech as a tweaking of the available tech and software, allowing a new doctrine.

Also, this is the 2nd time IIRC the Manties see the new Beta Cimeterres (with fission power plants).
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:54 pm

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Theemile wrote:
munroburton wrote:The Donkey was a response to Manticoran pods being equipped with a built-in tractor beam running off the built-in power source. The RHN could not do that, so they built a pod that had nothing but tractor beams and used it to drag other regular pods around.

<snip>


The other major Havenite "tech" at Manticore was the rotating control links used to control 3x the normal # of missiles the Havenites had control links for. I don't think it was entirely new tech as a tweaking of the available tech and software, allowing a new doctrine.

Also, this is the 2nd time IIRC the Manties see the new Beta Cimeterres (with fission power plants).

Ah, yes. At any rate, it had just occurred to me out of the blue that Haven didn't ever develop any revolutionary or unprecedented tech of its own. It's odd because, well... Shannon Foraker. I suppose that that truth is a testament to the non-stop pressure placed on Shannon that constantly thrust her into defensive mode by the development frenzy of Sonja Hemphill from the outset of Shannon sitting in the hot seat. A testament to Hemphill for certain. It could be viewed that the RMN couldn't allow the Peeps the development initiative either.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:18 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:Thanks for another nice analysis, and spot on I'm sure. I also think that the 'Age of Apollo' makes the tactic unnecessary. It's just that I don't recall any tactical, offensive uses of the accel advantage.


Yeah, Apollo turns everything on it's head, but it's implications (and uses) still haven't shaken out yet. It's like the laserhead, whose implications really weren't fully realized until ~1910, when the Havenite combatants had enough real battle data to see that their wallers practically never reached energy range of each other, and see that the ever improving laser head become the primary shipkiller for all combatants.

Over the next few years we should see the limitations of Apollo and find out what weapons it pushes off the battlefield (Like the laserhead put the nail in the coffin of the slugthrower defenses, and relegated the E-torp to 5th tier status) and what is developed to counter it.

Yeah, Honor made the statement that Apollo's surface is just being scratched. I'd like it cut open, so to speak.

I'm sure I cannot be the only one thinking that one, as of yet untapped, potential of Apollo is sharing control links. Why can't an Apollo ship that is too far out to personally engage, yet close enough to tactically assist, send Apollo missiles in ballistically, timed just right that another ship can assume control. Perhaps a ship that has shot itself -- or which is predicted will shoot itself -- dry. And perhaps the missiles coming in with an unusual ballistic component (though short of particle destruction) would even have a better angle of attack.

Or ships could micro jump in, send in missiles on one course with the preplanned intent of another Apollo capable ship assuming control along with their own launch -- literally allowing one ship to mousetrap a fleet with two launches, while the original ship micro jumps on another bearing firing yet a third launch at a fleet. A triple mousetrap. Whew!

It deviates from the kiss principle, but Harrington in conjunction with Tourville and others could pull it off. And it would be a sweet maneuver! It could come in handy against the MAlign.

My two tactical brainstorming Apollo centicreds anyways.

Rebuttals? :D

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:41 pm

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cthia wrote:Ah, yes. At any rate, it had just occurred to me out of the blue that Haven didn't ever develop any revolutionary or unprecedented tech of its own. It's odd because, well... Shannon Foraker. I suppose that that truth is a testament to the non-stop pressure placed on Shannon that constantly thrust her into defensive mode by the development frenzy of Sonja Hemphill from the outset of Shannon sitting in the hot seat. A testament to Hemphill for certain. It could be viewed that the RMN couldn't allow the Peeps the development initiative either.

The RMN had lines on the general R&D of all humanity; lots and lots of funding; an excellent general education system; and specific pressure for pushing the envelope of military technology, led by some very talented people.

Shannon Foraker shouldn't be compared to the RMN R&D base. It's not fair, and it's a way to completely miss her talents and role. Foraker's talent has been to take crappy technology, crappy high school graduates, and what funding the recovering Republic's economy could put in her hands - in the middle of a civil war, mind you - and make all of that work in clever ways, breaking no new frontiers, against every bell and whistle the Star Empire could push through BuWeaps with Hemphill playing usher and cheerleader.

It's not pressure - it's coming at the situation from a radically different position, making use of considerably different talents and skills.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:25 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:Shannon Foraker shouldn't be compared to the RMN R&D base. It's not fair, and it's a way to completely miss her talents and role. Foraker's talent has been to take crappy technology, crappy high school graduates, and what funding the recovering Republic's economy could put in her hands - in the middle of a civil war, mind you - and make all of that work in clever ways, breaking no new frontiers, against every bell and whistle the Star Empire could push through BuWeaps with Hemphill playing usher and cheerleader.

It's not pressure - it's coming at the situation from a radically different position, making use of considerably different talents and skills.

Which makes a long war against the SL interesting. They have massive number of well educated experts, the equal of the best of the RMN's tech, enormous production capability and essentially both endless funds and manpower.
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