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Suspension of Disbelief.

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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by hanuman   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:16 am

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Theemile wrote:
hanuman wrote:Ever heard of organic growth? No matter what number of people would be employed directly in asteroid mining, I think it's a reasonable assumption that they would remain on-site for extended periods of time. It would only be natural for them to want their families close by. The belt habitats would not be mining camps, but full-fledged communities, with everything those communities might require. Moreover, those habitats would have been developing into communities for several centuries. As I said before, Manticore is not 21st century America. It is a multi-planet star nation with a much higher standard of living. Even miners, who we today perceive as the rough living type, would expect far better living conditions than contemporary miners would. Add on several centuries of organic growth and suddenly a belter population of 300 million does not seem beyond imagining.

BTW, a city such as Johannesburg with a population of 5 or 6 million and a still-vibrant mining sector, only employs a few tens of thousands mine workers. the majority of the remaining population doesn't have anything to do with mining at all. I suspect the same is true of the belter population.


hanuman, KZT's point is that the belt cannot ONLY be doing mining. There must be something else there - other jobs NOT just putting bandaids on miners - to support 300 MILLION people. No one is saying that a Miner cannot have a wife and 5 kids, all 4 parents and 8 grandparents living off his income - but even if EVERY Miner lived in such a condition, it still doesn't add up to 300 Million people. There must be more jobs out there -and we don't know what they are - but they are not in shipbuilding or Major manufacturing.


I get his point, and that is exactly what I mean by 'organic growth'. I cannot currently think of an American example of a city that began as a mining centre and remains such, which is why I gave the example of Johannesburg. It began as a gold mining centre and remains such to this day, but only a very small proportion of the total population of the city is directly involved in mining.

As soon as you have a more or less permanent population of miners residing and working in a specific location, that location will begin to attract a non-mining population - first to provide services and goods to the miners themselves, but soon enough you'll see the emergence of service and other industries whose primary customers are not miners, and which are not related to the mining industry at all. Within just a few decades, if that long, the non-miner population will far outnumber the mining population.

My point is that, after several centuries of mining activity in the belts, it's not surprising that the belter population would have grown to the numbers Mr Weber mentioned.
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by Somtaaw   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:32 am

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Las Vegas....just substitute "gambling" for "mining.

-Food serving
-house-keeping (such as it is, after all RMN captains get a personal steward to look after them, and it's not a looked down on post)
-guaranteed to be.... companionship for whatever sexual taste
-maintenance, whether for direct miners and their mining ships, or the habitats, along with any visiting ships that may need the space equivalent of a tune-up and tire check
-law enforcement and supports (doubt they do more than make sure people don't get drunk and disorderly)
-Families that don't fall into any other category, so are a population, even if they aren't actually productive.

List goes on and on, but a prime example of organic support that developed around just about any other purpose. Could also use any of my own Canadian oil fields, and the support towns.
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by Theemile   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:48 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Las Vegas....just substitute "gambling" for "mining.

-Food serving
-house-keeping (such as it is, after all RMN captains get a personal steward to look after them, and it's not a looked down on post)
-guaranteed to be.... companionship for whatever sexual taste
-maintenance, whether for direct miners and their mining ships, or the habitats, along with any visiting ships that may need the space equivalent of a tune-up and tire check
-law enforcement and supports (doubt they do more than make sure people don't get drunk and disorderly)
-Families that don't fall into any other category, so are a population, even if they aren't actually productive.

List goes on and on, but a prime example of organic support that developed around just about any other purpose. Could also use any of my own Canadian oil fields, and the support towns.


Yes, but if you look in any of those towns, you are going to find a company in that mix which produces machine tools, another that produces engine parts for General Motors, another that makes cloths for the French market, etc etc, yet we're told there is no export business left in Manticore, nor major manufacturing industries.

I agree you will have organic growth in a situation like the belts - I've said, no, shouted, that all along, yet we're told it is not there. There are some civilian repair ships keeping up the habs, but no small shipyards building ore boats, no machine tool companies making armor plasma cutters, no computer chip companies, no speciality shops building radar widgets, and yet that is what we should find in an organic, free economic situation.

You are saying from you experiences what SHOULD be in a town or city. What actually grows there - that the innoculous building down the street makes all the rat poison sold in North America, or makes the all the metallic flakes in the paint in every car sold, or the building on the outskirts of town makes parts for nuclear missiles.

And Guess what - We agree with you - IT SHOULD be there - but we're told it isn't. All the major manufacturing, all the export business was in the 3 stations.

We should see a Spacely's Sprockets and a Cosgrove Cogs still making sprockets and cogs and selling them to Silesia, and they should have extra capability to start making other machine tools and grow in other ways. You should be able to order an armor plasma cutter from the guy in the belts, who has an expert trainer on staff to train your crews.

I'm not saying there is a place in the Belts that can retool and build Invictuses in 2 months, but all the major industry destroyed? all the major export manufacturers destroyed? All the guys that Built stuff for one of the greatest export economies in the Universe lived and worked in just 3 places?

REALLY? What do the rest of the people do?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:31 pm

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Posts: 2438
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Theemile wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Las Vegas....just substitute "gambling" for "mining.

-Food serving
-house-keeping (such as it is, after all RMN captains get a personal steward to look after them, and it's not a looked down on post)
-guaranteed to be.... companionship for whatever sexual taste
-maintenance, whether for direct miners and their mining ships, or the habitats, along with any visiting ships that may need the space equivalent of a tune-up and tire check
-law enforcement and supports (doubt they do more than make sure people don't get drunk and disorderly)
-Families that don't fall into any other category, so are a population, even if they aren't actually productive.

List goes on and on, but a prime example of organic support that developed around just about any other purpose. Could also use any of my own Canadian oil fields, and the support towns.


Yes, but if you look in any of those towns, you are going to find a company in that mix which produces machine tools, another that produces engine parts for General Motors, another that makes cloths for the French market, etc etc, yet we're told there is no export business left in Manticore, nor major manufacturing industries.

I agree you will have organic growth in a situation like the belts - I've said, no, shouted, that all along, yet we're told it is not there. There are some civilian repair ships keeping up the habs, but no small shipyards building ore boats, no machine tool companies making armor plasma cutters, no computer chip companies, no speciality shops building radar widgets, and yet that is what we should find in an organic, free economic situation.

You are saying from you experiences what SHOULD be in a town or city. What actually grows there - that the innoculous building down the street makes all the rat poison sold in North America, or makes the all the metallic flakes in the paint in every car sold, or the building on the outskirts of town makes parts for nuclear missiles.

And Guess what - We agree with you - IT SHOULD be there - but we're told it isn't. All the major manufacturing, all the export business was in the 3 stations.

We should see a Spacely's Sprockets and a Cosgrove Cogs still making sprockets and cogs and selling them to Silesia, and they should have extra capability to start making other machine tools and grow in other ways. You should be able to order an armor plasma cutter from the guy in the belts, who has an expert trainer on staff to train your crews.

I'm not saying there is a place in the Belts that can retool and build Invictuses in 2 months, but all the major industry destroyed? all the major export manufacturers destroyed? All the guys that Built stuff for one of the greatest export economies in the Universe lived and worked in just 3 places?

REALLY? What do the rest of the people do?


As KZT is fond of pointing out, economics is not one of RFC's strong points. For myself, I'll just go with the face-saving patch I suggested a while ago: belter industry is perfectly capable of servicing the needs of belter society and industry, but this doesn't include building any ships larger than they need, and it doesn't include military hardware beyond what their police forces need. That said, remember that they're less than 1/10th the size of the population on the three planets, and their industry is probably pretty well committed to their own needs, plus some slack as a matter of prudence against disasters.

That said, they are not only not capable of replacing the lost manufacturing capacity, their additional available capacity is somewhat comparable to the proverbial 'drop in the bucket.'
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by Tenshinai   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:05 pm

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Yup, truly embarrassing.


The fact that you don´t get why even now...
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:25 pm

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munroburton wrote:Compare that with nine months of constant medical supervision and monitoring. One night in a NICU costs $3000 currently, according to Google. Unless the tubing process is almost completely automated(or subsidised).

kzt wrote:Economics are not the strong point of Honorverse stories.


So I posted in the right thread, yes? :D


I don't think a tubed pregnancy really involves much actual caretaking--it's an artificial womb, it does it's job without constant medical attention.
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by Relax   » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:13 am

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Posts: 3214
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:18 pm

Tenshinai wrote:
Yup, truly embarrassing.


The fact that you don´t get why even now...


Aw did I shoot down one of your favorite Sci-Fiction tropes that has no basis in reality?

Tsk Tsk.

Pop goes the sci-fi sacred cow.

Moo!
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by munroburton   » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:35 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
munroburton wrote:Compare that with nine months of constant medical supervision and monitoring. One night in a NICU costs $3000 currently, according to Google. Unless the tubing process is almost completely automated(or subsidised).


I don't think a tubed pregnancy really involves much actual caretaking--it's an artificial womb, it does it's job without constant medical attention.


It could be a low-supervision device. However, you still want doctors to come by occasionally to make sure nothing's developing abnormally or whatever. Admittedly, Briarwood Reproduction Center seems to be a place for the wealthier Manticorans rather than a general facility, but they did have a moderate amount of staff.

I'd say liability concerns should play a part - imagine if some reproduction center was running short on staff and they forgot to change the waste filter, top up the nutritional supplements or the sensors failed to detect a rare condition developing. If the child survived, that center(or the physician in charge) could become liable for lifelong personal care and treatments.

All ~300 years of it.
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by hanuman   » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:13 am

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Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:47 pm

Theemile wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Las Vegas....just substitute "gambling" for "mining.

-Food serving
-house-keeping (such as it is, after all RMN captains get a personal steward to look after them, and it's not a looked down on post)
-guaranteed to be.... companionship for whatever sexual taste
-maintenance, whether for direct miners and their mining ships, or the habitats, along with any visiting ships that may need the space equivalent of a tune-up and tire check
-law enforcement and supports (doubt they do more than make sure people don't get drunk and disorderly)
-Families that don't fall into any other category, so are a population, even if they aren't actually productive.

List goes on and on, but a prime example of organic support that developed around just about any other purpose. Could also use any of my own Canadian oil fields, and the support towns.


Yes, but if you look in any of those towns, you are going to find a company in that mix which produces machine tools, another that produces engine parts for General Motors, another that makes cloths for the French market, etc etc, yet we're told there is no export business left in Manticore, nor major manufacturing industries.

I agree you will have organic growth in a situation like the belts - I've said, no, shouted, that all along, yet we're told it is not there. There are some civilian repair ships keeping up the habs, but no small shipyards building ore boats, no machine tool companies making armor plasma cutters, no computer chip companies, no speciality shops building radar widgets, and yet that is what we should find in an organic, free economic situation.

You are saying from you experiences what SHOULD be in a town or city. What actually grows there - that the innoculous building down the street makes all the rat poison sold in North America, or makes the all the metallic flakes in the paint in every car sold, or the building on the outskirts of town makes parts for nuclear missiles.

And Guess what - We agree with you - IT SHOULD be there - but we're told it isn't. All the major manufacturing, all the export business was in the 3 stations.

We should see a Spacely's Sprockets and a Cosgrove Cogs still making sprockets and cogs and selling them to Silesia, and they should have extra capability to start making other machine tools and grow in other ways. You should be able to order an armor plasma cutter from the guy in the belts, who has an expert trainer on staff to train your crews.

I'm not saying there is a place in the Belts that can retool and build Invictuses in 2 months, but all the major industry destroyed? all the major export manufacturers destroyed? All the guys that Built stuff for one of the greatest export economies in the Universe lived and worked in just 3 places?

REALLY? What do the rest of the people do?


What proportion of America's workforce is involved in her major export industries? Not much, really, right? The vast majority work in the service industries and that part of the manufacturing sector that produces goods for domestic consumption. Can the same be true of Manticore in general, and the belter population specifically?
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by kzt   » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:47 am

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hanuman wrote:What proportion of America's workforce is involved in her major export industries? Not much, really, right? The vast majority work in the service industries and that part of the manufacturing sector that produces goods for domestic consumption. Can the same be true of Manticore in general, and the belter population specifically?

Exactly what industry people are employed by isn't clear from the data I can find, but I tell you what they do.

Thanks to the party of immunity to banksters and crony capitalists we only have 135 million employed, and it breaks down like this:
6.7 million managers
6.8 million in business and finance
3.8 million Computers and math
2.4 million Architects and engineers
1.4 million life sciences
1.9 million social services
1 million legal
8.4 million education & library
1.8 million Art, design, entertainment, sports
7.9 million healthcare
4 million healthcare support
3.3 million protective services
12.3 million food preparation and service
4.4 million Building & grounds maintenance
4.2 personal care and service
14.3 million sales etc
21.6 million office and admin support
0.4 million farming
5.3 million construction & extraction
5.3 Million Installation, maint & repair.
8.9 million production
9.3 million transportation
Poke around, it's interesting.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm
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