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Diesel

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Re: Diesel
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:58 pm

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Easternmystic wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:NOx compounds among others.


You do realize that agriculture produces far more NOx than internal combustion engines.


Agriculture doesn't produce the same combination of combustion byproducts that "fingerprint" high-pressure combustion. It isn't NOx alone, but the total "fingerprint" of combustion byproducts that could wake the OBS.

There is no guarantee that internal combustion engines would wake either the OBS or ire of traditionalists interpretation of the Proscriptions. but there is no need to accept the risk of either disastrous adverse reaction when Steam Power can fill the needs of Safehold until Electricity and Nuclear Fusion are possible. There should never be a need to waste valuable organic fossil hydrocarbons by destroying them (burning them) beyond any possibility of recycling.
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Re: Diesel
Post by n7axw   » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:56 pm

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Hmmm. I'm kinda looking for Owl to slip Howsmyn the plans for a 440 cui hemi myself. It would be fun... :lol:

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Diesel
Post by Easternmystic   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Easternmystic wrote:
You do realize that agriculture produces far more NOx than internal combustion engines.


Agriculture doesn't produce the same combination of combustion byproducts that "fingerprint" high-pressure combustion. It isn't NOx alone, but the total "fingerprint" of combustion byproducts that could wake the OBS.

There is no guarantee that internal combustion engines would wake either the OBS or ire of traditionalists interpretation of the Proscriptions. but there is no need to accept the risk of either disastrous adverse reaction when Steam Power can fill the needs of Safehold until Electricity and Nuclear Fusion are possible. There should never be a need to waste valuable organic fossil hydrocarbons by destroying them (burning them) beyond any possibility of recycling.


There is an immense difference between making an assertion that diesel engines are not needed for the current conflict and asserting using diesel engines runs a risk of awakening the OBS because of handwavium.

You have never dealt with the problem of how do you remote sense pollutants with concentrations of parts per thousand to parts per billion with sufficient spatial accuracy to be used as tracking solutions for the OBS weapons system.
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Re: Diesel
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:09 am

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All the OBS would need to do is notice diesel spoor somewhere, anywhere, and then power up a previously dormant module that throws rocks at mobile heat sources.
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Re: Diesel
Post by Easternmystic   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:04 pm

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Expert snuggler wrote:All the OBS would need to do is notice diesel spoor somewhere, anywhere, and then power up a previously dormant module that throws rocks at mobile heat sources.


How does this handwavium of the OBS noticing the diesel exhaust actual occur?

The largest pollutant in exhaust from internal combustion engines of any type are the NOx components. The concentration of all the NOx pollutants in the exhaust is 500 to 1,000 ppm. in percentage terms that is 0.05% to 0.1%. A sensor with a spatial resolution of 10 square cm might possible be able to directly measure the exhaust gases. There is also the little problem that it has to search for the gases indirectly as there is a vacuum between the Safehold atmosphere and the OBS. The OBS has to be monitoring all the possible 10 square centimeter patches on Safehold looking for diesel pollutants. Oh yeah in case that's not difficult enough it has to do the monitoring in real time. If by some miracle of handwavium, this could actually be accomplished, you would then need to deploy a remote to confirm that the first measurement was not a false positive.

Given the difficulty of making this measurement the false positives would be in the order of thousands or millions of false positives for every true positive. From Merlin's perspective the existence of such a system would be good news as a remote could eavesdrop on the communications between the remotes and the OBS to decipher the communication protocols required to make a close approach to the OBS. The OBS problem would be solved. Even if no false positives had occurred since Merlin woke, another handwavium miracle, the entire system would have to be tested periodically to ensure all the components remained operational.

To put it simply the entire concept of an OBS sensor able to detect diesel exhaust from orbit in real time requires multiple levels of handwavium.

The problem of detecting the steam engines was absurdly simple in comparison. Simply detect heat sources and analyze the source over time to detect any peculiarities in the nature of the sources. it requires far less spatial resolution, computing power and the required sensor is much simpler any anything that is required to measure gas concentrations in the range of parts per million or lower.
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Re: Diesel
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:22 pm

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Easternmystic wrote:
Expert snuggler wrote:All the OBS would need to do is notice diesel spoor somewhere, anywhere, and then power up a previously dormant module that throws rocks at mobile heat sources.


How does this handwavium of the OBS noticing the diesel exhaust actual occur?

The largest pollutant in exhaust from internal combustion engines of any type are the NOx components. The concentration of all the NOx pollutants in the exhaust is 500 to 1,000 ppm. in percentage terms that is 0.05% to 0.1%. A sensor with a spatial resolution of 10 square cm might possible be able to directly measure the exhaust gases. ...


The OBS doesn't need to distinguish individual engines, it just needs to be able to distinguish between an 1890-ish London "Pea Soup" Fog and a 1960-ish LA Smog. Individual engines are the problem of the Inquisition, the OBS is for leveling enclaves and cities where forbidden tech has gotten beyond individual experimenters into (relatively) widespread use. (Where the Inquisition is obviously not doing its job.)

The chance of the OBS acting autonomously against even 1960-ish Los Angeles levels of Internal Combustion Engine emissions is small, but the result of guessing wrong about what will wake the OBS is not worth taking even that small chance -- especially since ICEs and/or electricity are not immediately necessary.
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Re: Diesel
Post by sunhawk   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:48 pm

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especially since ICEs and/or electricity are not immediately necessary.







But wouldn't you love to see Merlin, Cayleb, Green Valley, and Eastshare rolling into Zion in tanks?
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Re: Diesel
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:13 pm

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sunhawk wrote:But wouldn't you love to see Merlin, Cayleb, Green Valley, and Eastshare rolling into Zion in tanks?


Can be done with Steam. Not that it would be my preferred scenario anyway.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Diesel
Post by Keith_w   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:03 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
sunhawk wrote:But wouldn't you love to see Merlin, Cayleb, Green Valley, and Eastshare rolling into Zion in tanks?


Can be done with Steam. Not that it would be my preferred scenario anyway.

But they will be rolling with tanks - with the tanks of everybody who was under the thumb or otherwise harmed by Clyntahn and the inquisition!

Like my kids say, if there's a bad joke to made, Dad will make it!
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A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Diesel
Post by phillies   » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:34 pm

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There is no evidence as to whether or not the OBS has any triggers, or if so which ones. Moving large masses of metal, e.g., iron steamships, comes to mind, with magnetic field detection.
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