Suspension of Disbelief.

hanuman wrote:Ever heard of organic growth? No matter what number of people would be employed directly in asteroid mining, I think it's a reasonable assumption that they would remain on-site for extended periods of time. It would only be natural for them to want their families close by. The belt habitats would not be mining camps, but full-fledged communities, with everything those communities might require. Moreover, those habitats would have been developing into communities for several centuries. As I said before, Manticore is not 21st century America. It is a multi-planet star nation with a much higher standard of living. Even miners, who we today perceive as the rough living type, would expect far better living conditions than contemporary miners would. Add on several centuries of organic growth and suddenly a belter population of 300 million does not seem beyond imagining.

BTW, a city such as Johannesburg with a population of 5 or 6 million and a still-vibrant mining sector, only employs a few tens of thousands mine workers. the majority of the remaining population doesn't have anything to do with mining at all. I suspect the same is true of the belter population.

hanuman, KZT's point is that the belt cannot ONLY be doing mining. There must be something else there - other jobs NOT just putting bandaids on miners - to support 300 MILLION people. No one is saying that a Miner cannot have a wife and 5 kids, all 4 parents and 8 grandparents living off his income - but even if EVERY Miner lived in such a condition, it still doesn't add up to 300 Million people. There must be more jobs out there -and we don't know what they are - but they are not in shipbuilding or Major manufacturing.

Theemile wrote:There must be more jobs out there -and we don't know what they are - but they are not in shipbuilding or Major manufacturing.

I personally have no idea what most of the inhabitants of the SKM do. We have this tiny percentage that did all the manufacturing (tiny as in .02% of the population), a another 0.05% that supported that industry in space, and less than 1% part of the military. I'll guess another 5% are minor children, So as far as I can tell we have NO IDEA what more than 90% of the population does that is so critical to the economy and war making potential of the SKM that they can't be allowed to join the military. But David says they are.

I know there are doctors, taxi drivers (really? - but see AAC Chapter 30) and some rare expensive restaurants and bars that have actual waiters, waitresses and bar tenders, some sort of financial sector, a bunch of merchant ships with tiny crews, and people running warehouses and repair/maint shops at the junction based on the text, but how it all somehow makes a hugely prosperous economy is something that just doesn't work for me.

kzt wrote:

Theemile wrote:There must be more jobs out there -and we don't know what they are - but they are not in shipbuilding or Major manufacturing.

I personally have no idea what most of the inhabitants of the SKM do. We have this tiny percentage that did all the manufacturing (tiny as in .02% of the population), a another 0.05% that supported that industry in space, and less than 1% part of the military. I'll guess another 5% are minor children, So we have NO IDEA what more than 90% of the population does that is so critical to the economy and war making potential of the SKM that they can't be allowed to join the military. But David says they are..

You tell me how it works.

<shrug>

2.9 billion Investment Planners and Graphics Designers?

Theemile wrote:
<shrug>

2.9 billion Investment Planners and Graphics Designers?

2.9 Billion liberal arts majors who aren't worth a damn and are shocked when they graduate to find that any job they can attain either does not exist, or pays very poorly.

Relax wrote:2.9 Billion liberal arts majors who aren't worth a damn and are shocked when they graduate to find that any job they can attain either does not exist, or pays very poorly.

Which kind of fails to answer why these people are so essential to the operation of the economy of Manticore and/or the war effort that recruiting any significant number of them would cause the war to be lost. And no, I don't have an answer to that either.

kzt wrote:

Relax wrote:2.9 Billion liberal arts majors who aren't worth a damn and are shocked when they graduate to find that any job they can attain either does not exist, or pays very poorly.

Which kind of fails to answer why these people are so essential to the operation of the economy of Manticore and/or the war effort that recruiting any significant number of them would cause the war to be lost. And no, I don't have an answer to that either.

Well, obviously they are all liberal arts majors. That means by and large their IQ is way below par. So, low they actually got a liberal arts degree to start with.

Therefore, they all must have excessive amounts of remedial low intensity education to be able to work on an assembly line in manufacturing and also according to DW need decades of education to become a basic military naval rating or officer so they can make sure to be able to read a manual and then check said widget machine and see, yes indeed, the light is red, replace the part.

It is just sad, that all these remedial education cases have still not graduated to become a working member of Manticoran society yet. Alas, the wars ended first.

See, they must all be retarded and that is why 300Million are in the asteroid belts. Though the 300 Million was a typo on DW's part and he really meant to type 3 Billion. He misplaced an order of magnitude. Darned decimal point moved on him during a late night writing session. Giant special education centers. One and all for basic DUH jobs.

See, in 2000 years in the future everyone has become stupid.

After all the stupid idiots cannot run a power cord or figure out how to wirelessly beam power to pods, or for that matter have pods that are vulnerable to EMP... The stupid idiots cannot do simple math when designing their Keyholes. Gee, we can fire 11 salvos, but hey, lets only incorporate enough control links for 8... Multiplication is very advanced for these people 2000 years from now.

So what we call below average today is in reality Genius material in 2000 years. That is why the MALIGN exists to begin with. To rectify humanities decline into stupidity.

Relax wrote:Uh, Teni

You missed both my and J6P's palm in face statement.

If you have a spin section, and a person takes a single step inward, outward, or laterally, what happens to the station?

Of FFS, READ AGAIN. I´ve replied about it more than once, how CAN you miss it?

"what happens to the station"? Pretty much NOTHING.

Because the station has thousands or millions of times more MASS than the person.
If an ant walks on a boat floating freely on water, does it cause the boat to move? No, not noticeably, because the amount of force exerted compared to the mass is nearly irrelevant.
If you randomly exert 10kg of force in various directions on a 1Mt structure, even if constant, the effect will be minimal.

Because, a person is very unlikely to literally run in circles all day, because unless they do, then some of the force they exert will be cancelled out when they move in other directions.

If a station needed rapid spin, ANY changes of its internal center of mass would quickly make it develop wobbling, but this is when you have RPM up in the many hundreds or thousands.

With RPM at 2 or less, as it STILL takes hundreds of spins to even begin to develop a wobble, like i said, all you need is minor corrections every day or week, for a sufficiently large structure, inertia is so large that you can probably get away with a correction per month.

Except of course that in Honorverse, thrust is ULTRACHEAP. You can do spincorrections each minute and the pricetag wont even be visible compared to providing power for lighting the station up.

Relax wrote:A spin section must be balanced and remain balanced.

Wherever did you get that faerytale from?

Relax wrote:A spin section has never been made except in the minds of authors utterly ignorant of basic engineering. Especially ignorant of dynamics. You will note NASA and company have never even contemplated such a design past the PH.D utterly clueless of basic engineering reality stage for living in.

Actually, NASA has suggested such stations, they have just never been given any funding for proceeding with one.

Relax wrote:It is such a large problem, that NASA even has published papers regarding using a small centrifuge section on the ISS, so the space station does not have station keeping problems. http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 056231.pdf That is for only the use of a single human to enter and set up with the experiments inside. You can look up other massive problems with attaching the CAM module to the ISS if you so desire.

Did you even read that file?

Seriously, you illiterate or something?

The section is meant for experiments, and the main problem described in the file is how it may cause vibration that might impact other experiments.

Relax wrote:The ONLY objects spun in space are those who are balanced and remain so. A living habitat would never be balanced and it would NEVER remain so.

*giggles*



You really don´t have a clue do you...

Relax wrote:Well, obviously they are all liberal arts majors. That means by and large their IQ is way below par. So, low they actually got a liberal arts degree to start with.

If you ever bothered to check, you might find that "liberal arts" have a tendency to draw a fair share of quite intelligent people.

"run in circles all day". In short you have no idea how a gyro works. Running in a circle would have no effect on a spinning object other than to slow its spin if you ran in the direction of spin without ever stopping.

Moving inward/outward causes a spinning object to pitch. Right hand rule... An unbalanced spinning object causes the station to precess. CONTINUOUSLY. Therefore every single kg of mass moved around that remains unbalanced would therefore require 100% corrective power for eternity until balance is restored.

Nor did you understand what the NASA paper was for. Gotcha.

"vibrations" transmitted to the station. Exactly. Do you even understand what a vibration is? Clearly not. Wave form, Amplitude and frequency... Guess what happens to an out of balance spinning object... The mass moment of inertia is enormous on even tiny vibrations creating gargantuan problems at the bearings due to deflection, leading to massive wear, leading to broken seals, leading to destroyed space stations. Why very large bearings are nearly impossible to build.

In a perfect world where theorists reside, there are no such things as out of balance spinning objects, or vibrations and therefore they can blithely throw around these nice giant rotating surfaces for giant air locks etc. The reality is far different. Even if we made our structures out of Diamond, its deflection curves on large bearing surfaces are still NOT sufficient.

Did you even notice on the NASA CAM that the rotating section was an INTERNAL rotating section? In short just a giant centrifuge. There was no spinning interface other than power/IO/water. IE no sealed bearing.

Liberal arts do indeed have a lot of very intelligent people in the field. In an affluent society able to pander to the whims of its people, when they do not have to scrape for every cent and crumb of bread, or weapon of war for survival, then the liberal arts are able to flourish. None of them are relevant to fighting a war for your very survival which supposedly Manticore was doing. Therefore, why such sarcasm was used for why most of the Manticoran population was sitting on their collective Gluteous Maximus's.

"run in circles all day". In short you have no idea how a gyro works. Running in a circle would have no effect on a spinning object other than to slow its spin if you ran in the direction of spin without ever stopping.

Seriously... You must stop soon, this is getting embarassing.

Nor did you understand what the NASA paper was for. Gotcha.

I understood just fine.

The mass moment of inertia is enormous on even tiny vibrations creating gargantuan problems at the bearings due to deflection, leading to massive wear, leading to broken seals, leading to destroyed space stations. Why very large bearings are nearly impossible to build.

Yes, bearings... Bearings of a sort you don´t need on a spingravity station, at all.

Closest you get is if you want a central "no-spin" docking point, and you don´t want that kind of bearings for that anyway.

Did you even notice on the NASA CAM that the rotating section was an INTERNAL rotating section? In short just a giant centrifuge. There was no spinning interface other than power/IO/water. IE no sealed bearing.

No! You don´t say! I mean, that was totally such an incredibly surprising... Eh no, that was kinda obvious.

And by the way, did YOU notice that despite being small enough to fit inside the space station, it was used to generate up to multi-g force?

And you are hopefully at least aware that the slower you spin, the harder it is to get vibrations. As vibrations tend to generated by higher RPM spinning.

Tenshinai wrote:

"run in circles all day". In short you have no idea how a gyro works. Running in a circle would have no effect on a spinning object other than to slow its spin if you ran in the direction of spin without ever stopping.

Seriously... You must stop soon, this is getting embarassing.

Embarrassing? What is Newtons 2nd/3rd law again?

To run, you need a thing called friction to propel yourself forward. This causes a force at your FOOT, pushing BACKWards. Opposite force is air friction and heat. Heat obviously does not produce a force. Rather it radiates into space. Therefore if you run in the spin direction, you will be pushing AGAINST the spin rotation and slowing the rotation down.

Yes, truly embarrassing.

********
Giant bearings between the non spinning docking bays/cargobays etc. What was newtons 2nd and 3rd laws of motion again? Only living section will be spin oriented. Cargo etc certainly will not be spun up. No need. There also most certainly will be a bearing there. What? You want to believe in magic holding the two sections together and spinning at the same time?

Yup, truly embarrassing.

***************
What does the number of "g's" for the centrifuge have to do with anything in a gyroscope? Spinning masses is by Mass Moment of INERTIA. Almost all of mechanical engineering is via MMI when you boil it all down to the nitty gritty.

Yup, truly embarrassing.