Suspension of Disbelief.

People rarely put comunities in places for no reason. Businesses also rarely put commercial operation and corporate housing in places for no reason. Sure, stuff gets built or moved to some remote spots but there is always a reason. You put a communications tower out in the middle of nowhere to serve as a relay point but then you usually have it serviced at some regular intervel and send repair crew (or just one person) as needed.

If you are going to put what amounts to a mining camp in an asteroid belt, you are probably going to want it equiped with some type of station keeping capacity just to maintain it at a given point relative to it's major reasons for existence. You don't really have that need on a planet since you are building on the ground. You are also going to want to have some sort of screening against -at minimum- orbital debris (there is usually a bunch of bits of material in the belt that could damage you or your camp) and if you are excavating or processing materials from what amount to orbiting rocks or mountains, you have to deal with anything that gets released into the belt by those operations. Just what do you think happens to pebbles, dust, the odd big chunk of material that gets pushed (or exploded or) "falls" out of an ore carrying line in a place where everything is moving in a long orbit around a star? All of it can end up moving at signifcant speeds relative to a ship or workboat going somewhere in that area

If you camp's reason for being ends up being worked out, you have several choices. Just abandoing it is probably not feasible since it represents a considerable investment. Most likely the owner(s) of the structure would at least hire a tug and shift it to a new work site. You might mothball it in place but you are also going to need to maintain it's position and check on it periodiacly to deal with any problems that come up.

Using off-shore oil platforms as an example, not only do you need to rotate your crews, but also provide supplies for both the supporting of the crew but also for the work they are doing and the movement (eventually) of the materials they are or will be producing when the oil or gas comes on-line.
How likely is it that belt habitats or processing centers are just going to dump things like human waste overboard? They will be reprocessing it. Used water is not just going to be dumped. We don't know the size of population that makes a compleat enviormental system containing reprocessing, hydroponics or other similar things economical but you are still going to want to have this stuff because it lowers cost and keeps the area around you habitat/plant clear of debris as well as providing a buffer in the supply of air and water for the crew/residents.
There is general also a signifcant service and support operation that developes to provide the goods, material and support for the crews of off-shore operations. That includes the crews and vessels/aircraft that serve them. It gets complicated.

All of this is also going to develop at least the minimum capasity needed to provide repairs for most of the things involved. That means yet more people and the support for them. Now days that would include things like machine shops, light manufacturing, repair shops and eating establishments. Sure, you can go in the directions of "company towns" but also now it is less expensive for companies to let independent businesses provide those services or at least develope to fill the needs that show up.

Brigade XO wrote:People rarely put comunities in places for no reason. Businesses also rarely put commercial operation and corporate housing in places for no reason. Sure, stuff gets built or moved to some remote spots but there is always a reason. You put a communications tower out in the middle of nowhere to serve as a relay point but then you usually have it serviced at some regular intervel and send repair crew (or just one person) as needed.

If you are going to put what amounts to a mining camp in an asteroid belt, you are probably going to want it equiped with some type of station keeping capacity just to maintain it at a given point relative to it's major reasons for existence. You don't really have that need on a planet since you are building on the ground. You are also going to want to have some sort of screening against -at minimum- orbital debris (there is usually a bunch of bits of material in the belt that could damage you or your camp) and if you are excavating or processing materials from what amount to orbiting rocks or mountains, you have to deal with anything that gets released into the belt by those operations. Just what do you think happens to pebbles, dust, the odd big chunk of material that gets pushed (or exploded or) "falls" out of an ore carrying line in a place where everything is moving in a long orbit around a star? All of it can end up moving at signifcant speeds relative to a ship or workboat going somewhere in that area

If you camp's reason for being ends up being worked out, you have several choices. Just abandoing it is probably not feasible since it represents a considerable investment. Most likely the owner(s) of the structure would at least hire a tug and shift it to a new work site. You might mothball it in place but you are also going to need to maintain it's position and check on it periodiacly to deal with any problems that come up.

Using off-shore oil platforms as an example, not only do you need to rotate your crews, but also provide supplies for both the supporting of the crew but also for the work they are doing and the movement (eventually) of the materials they are or will be producing when the oil or gas comes on-line.
How likely is it that belt habitats or processing centers are just going to dump things like human waste overboard? They will be reprocessing it. Used water is not just going to be dumped. We don't know the size of population that makes a compleat enviormental system containing reprocessing, hydroponics or other similar things economical but you are still going to want to have this stuff because it lowers cost and keeps the area around you habitat/plant clear of debris as well as providing a buffer in the supply of air and water for the crew/residents.
There is general also a signifcant service and support operation that developes to provide the goods, material and support for the crews of off-shore operations. That includes the crews and vessels/aircraft that serve them. It gets complicated.

All of this is also going to develop at least the minimum capasity needed to provide repairs for most of the things involved. That means yet more people and the support for them. Now days that would include things like machine shops, light manufacturing, repair shops and eating establishments. Sure, you can go in the directions of "company towns" but also now it is less expensive for companies to let independent businesses provide those services or at least develope to fill the needs that show up.

David did say that the "premium" for living in space is inconsequential compared to living on a planet. I'd figure this is a comparison to living in a large city vs the country (large cities have higher housing costs and higher basic food costs due to the costs of shipping in all produce/meats) and probably figures in the cost of transit (fairly low, probably on a similar level to the cost to ride an inter-urban train today.)

Obviously, the more remote, the higher some basic costs will be, but Honorverse space living is supposed to be relatively cheap.

For me I see the belt habitats as a series of tiers of sizes. The 8,000 person hab we saw is in the middle - it's the small town on the fringes of the settled area. It's the center of the economy in it's area, and offers all the basic services it's residents and any visitors need, but without too many frills.

Smaller, more temporary habs probably exist in the spaces being explored or mined, and will
move as the job is done (This may actually be the role of specialized ships, not habs, depending on the frequency of their movement.) These are much more Spartan, more of a barracks than a town.

The last will be larger habs that house 100,000 or more - these probably started as smaller habs and grew, becoming the regional locus of the belt economies, replacing business offering goods and services shipped from the planets. Large Domes connected to these habs would not only offer plenty of fresh food, but local green spaces the smaller hab residents can vacation to. These would house regional headquarters for the mining corps, in addition to larger hospitals with better medical care, perhaps community colleges, repair facilities, etc.

I would say light manufacturing would grow there as well, but we know that's out.

I would say light manufacturing would grow there as well, but we know that's out.

No, we know that manufacturing good for building ships, or for replacing Manticore´s lost industry is out, but that´s not the same.

Aside from that, i think you probably nailed it pretty well most likely.

Tenshinai wrote:

Theemile wrote:I would say light manufacturing would grow there as well, but we know that's out.

No, we know that manufacturing good for building ships, or for replacing Manticore´s lost industry is out, but that´s not the same.

Aside from that, i think you probably nailed it pretty well most likely.

Yeah, that pretty much matches my take on it too. As far as using belter industry to replace Manticore's lost industry: they could probably do it, but it would take a lot of time to build the necessary facilities, which would only be used once. Lots faster and cheaper to build and ship the new industry in from Beowulf.

JohnRoth wrote:As far as using belter industry to replace Manticore's lost industry: they could probably do it, but it would take a lot of time to build the necessary facilities, which would only be used once. Lots faster and cheaper to build and ship the new industry in from Beowulf.

They don't need facilities, they need toolsets and trained operators, techs, design engineers and manufacturing logistics staff. They can put the stuff in a big shell on the ground and then haul components into orbit and then move the stuff later.

And if you can build a habitat that houses 100,000 people it's not a big stretch to build an orbital factory. Which is why David says they can't.

None of this stuff makes much sense, so trying to make it make sense will drive you a bit nuts.

If there are 100,000 or greater person habitats that are at the higher end of mining and other operatons out in the belts, they PROBABLY have a lot of light industry concentrated around the repair and maintance of the facility plus the ships that serve it and the actual mining and smelting going on. They can fabricate replacement parts for things.
Not mass production of computer components or building fusion plants, but dealing with a lot of smaller stuff. What they could do is start cloning off tools and equipment that would be usefull in the bootstrapping back up the Manticore industrail capasity. They can also likely provide up to some level of training grounds for basic skills in a wide range of manufacturing and repair which will help feed at least newly trained people into the workforce needed to replace all that lost workforce.
The students will probably come from the three planets in the Manticore system and places like Talbot Quadrant but the teaching force is the experienced workforce base in the Belt industries. Cost of moving people out to the belts and back again is relatively low. The experience pool of manufacturing (at different levels) and light industry and repair work is going to be there and is a resource that Manticore can't afford to ignore.
While the replacement goes forward for the new stations and orbital manufacturing, local belt shops can probably start working on contract orders for any number of relativly small but important items to provide routine replacement parts and components.

Brigade XO wrote:If there are 100,000 or greater person habitats that are at the higher end of mining and other operatons out in the belts, they PROBABLY have a lot of light industry concentrated around the repair and maintance of the facility plus the ships that serve it and the actual mining and smelting going on. They can fabricate replacement parts for things.
Not mass production of computer components or building fusion plants, but dealing with a lot of smaller stuff. What they could do is start cloning off tools and equipment that would be usefull in the bootstrapping back up the Manticore industrail capasity. They can also likely provide up to some level of training grounds for basic skills in a wide range of manufacturing and repair which will help feed at least newly trained people into the workforce needed to replace all that lost workforce.
The students will probably come from the three planets in the Manticore system and places like Talbot Quadrant but the teaching force is the experienced workforce base in the Belt industries. Cost of moving people out to the belts and back again is relatively low. The experience pool of manufacturing (at different levels) and light industry and repair work is going to be there and is a resource that Manticore can't afford to ignore.
While the replacement goes forward for the new stations and orbital manufacturing, local belt shops can probably start working on contract orders for any number of relativly small but important items to provide routine replacement parts and components.

Or so a lot of us argued in the past. Yet David said no, there isn't that level of industry out there to contribute significantly.

Which is why everyone's trying to figure out what the belters do for a living, because what you said above just follows the logical pattern of growth and side growth.

Space habitats are expensive. At least 10 times more costly to build on a per person basis than a house on a habitable planet. Probably much more than that. Remember how It was mentioned about how expensive grav plates are for a house? Well every residence in space needs them and that is not the most expensive part.

So habs will need to be built by someone with a lot of money, and presumably a plan as to how their investment will return a profit. Ok, I can see this for thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of people spread across the belt. But 300 million? With every single living unit built by a space rated manufacture back at Manticore? So far David has provided vague hand waving and mumbles about "asteroid mining and stuff".

So yeah, I'm not buying it.

kzt wrote:Space habitats are expensive. At least 10 times more costly to build on a per person basis than a house on a habitable planet. Probably much more than that. Remember how It was mentioned about how expensive grav plates are for a house? Well every residence in space needs them and that is not the most expensive part.

So habs will need to be built by someone with a lot of money, and presumably a plan as to how their investment will return a profit. Ok, I can see this for thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of people spread across the belt. But 300 million? With every single living unit built by a space rated manufacture back at Manticore? So far David has provided vague hand waving and mumbles about "asteroid mining and stuff".

So yeah, I'm not buying it.

I thought I saw something upthread about that. Here it is:

theemile wrote:David did say that the "premium" for living in space is inconsequential compared to living on a planet. I'd figure this is a comparison to living in a large city vs the country (large cities have higher housing costs and higher basic food costs due to the costs of shipping in all produce/meats) and probably figures in the cost of transit (fairly low, probably on a similar level to the cost to ride an inter-urban train today.)

Obviously, the more remote, the higher some basic costs will be, but Honorverse space living is supposed to be relatively cheap.

There's close to a factor of ten difference in what the two of you are saying. Textev on both sides, please.

If your house on a planet includes grav plates, a self-contained air recycling system, a waste recyling and reclamation system, radiation shielding, exterior walls that are pressure bulkheads, gas based fire suppression systems, 3 layers of backup power, and skinsuits for everyone (including the growing kids) than maybe it isn't that much more expensive.

But I don't tend to see that in the text.

So no, I don't buy that claim at all. Even David doesn't. For example, do you read "low-cost" here?:

"This particular Dempsey's lay at the very hub of HMSS Hephaestus's core, yet its designers had gone to great lengths to create a ground-side environment. They couldn't avoid the legally mandated color codings for emergency life support and other disaster-related access and service points, but they'd paid through the nose for permits to build double-high compartments, then used the extra height to accommodate dropped ceilings that hid the snake nests of pipes and power conduits which covered deckheads elsewhere."