Operation Treehouse

If H. Harrington, H. Alexander, P. Benjamin, S. Hemphill and K. Hauptman didn't take a page from the Havenites Bolthole and did not build a hidden shipyard pre-Yawata strike they don't live up to the standards we expect of them these days. These characters, minus Hauptman, are supposed to think about what worst case scenarios can happen and do what needs to be done to prevent them even if the chances of them happening are slim. This specific theme(disaster planning) has been repeated in many war room discussions in many of these books. And I do hope that David uses a better code word when this scenario eventually(hopefully ) comes to light.

That presumes that Manticore had the capability to make the massive monetary and industrial investment needed to build a secret shipyard disappear. Given how badly Thunderbolt put the screws on the Alliance, it's a certainty that they didn't invest in a Bolthole.

The only time the could have possibly done this is during the ceasefire. At all other times, the construction ability this would divert from warships would be criminal. And I don't see the High Ridge government spending money on the navy, do you?

JPMorgan wrote:If H. Harrington, H. Alexander, P. Benjamin, S. Hemphill and K. Hauptman didn't take a page from the Havenites Bolthole and did not build a hidden shipyard pre-Yawata strike they don't live up to the standards we expect of them these days. These characters, minus Hauptman, are supposed to think about what worst case scenarios can happen and do what needs to be done to prevent them even if the chances of them happening are slim. This specific theme(disaster planning) has been repeated in many war room discussions in many of these books. And I do hope that David uses a better code word when this scenario eventually(hopefully ) comes to light.

Welcome aboard JPMorgan. Have a beer on us, and chips are still at a premium because of Lacoon II.

Forgive me for taking this convenient opportunity to say "Darn straight. Which is why I was saying all along why all of the Apollo capable ships should not have left the Home system!"

Manticore was thinking of sending the RMN to visit Nouveau Paris. Why couldn't they see that desperation — which is the father of invention — would make Haven do it too?!

Ok, flashbacks over.

Duckk wrote:That presumes that Manticore had the capability to make the massive monetary and industrial investment needed to build a secret shipyard disappear. Given how badly Thunderbolt put the screws on the Alliance, it's a certainty that they didn't invest in a Bolthole.

Grayson turned out to be their unwitting Bolthole, building at a budget busting rate to protect Manty chestnuts.

JPMorgan wrote:If H. Harrington, H. Alexander, P. Benjamin, S. Hemphill and K. Hauptman didn't take a page from the Havenites Bolthole and did not build a hidden shipyard pre-Yawata strike they don't live up to the standards we expect of them these days. These characters, minus Hauptman, are supposed to think about what worst case scenarios can happen and do what needs to be done to prevent them even if the chances of them happening are slim. This specific theme(disaster planning) has been repeated in many war room discussions in many of these books. And I do hope that David uses a better code word when this scenario eventually(hopefully ) comes to light.

To some extent they did (called Grendelsbane; didn't end up well). And yes, I know that wasn't a 'secret' shipyard, but it was an effort to spread out the risk, so that a single attack wouldn't cripple production.

But remember that Manticore was, until late in the game, a relatively small polity; five planets if you count Baslisk and San Marino in three systems. Haven had literally hundreds of systems to draw from, both for personnel and location; Manticore would have had to find one that was (1) Near enough to support (2) Far enough away from Haven and (3) Had enough resources and manpower (theirs was stretched to the limit maintaining the current war effort).

In the end, they figured having three centers (Manticore, Grason and Grendlesbane) would be the best way to go; one can argue that they should have seen both surprise attacks coming, but that is hindsight talking, and hindsight always has 20/20 vision...

IMHO as always. YMMV.

But the thing here we must not overlook is, as Hutch pointed out, Manticore couldn't ever hope to go toe-to-toe in building ship for ship. They knew that. I remember a statement to that effect, which is what drove them to make up the difference and then some technologically. Their numerical inferiority is what motivated their R&D. Had they been able to build ship for ship might not have injected that 'need to survive' vein with unprecedented visions of tech.

The prospect of death has a way of concentrating one's thoughts. Which in Manticore's case was Sonja Hemphill's thoughts in R&D.

cthia wrote:

Duckk wrote:That presumes that Manticore had the capability to make the massive monetary and industrial investment needed to build a secret shipyard disappear. Given how badly Thunderbolt put the screws on the Alliance, it's a certainty that they didn't invest in a Bolthole.

Grayson turned out to be their unwitting Bolthole, building at a budget busting rate to protect Manty chestnuts.

Hardly a Bolthole. Grayson wasn't hidden at all, although it did push Alliance R&D in new directions.

JPMorgan wrote:If H. Harrington, H. Alexander, P. Benjamin, S. Hemphill and K. Hauptman didn't take a page from the Havenites Bolthole and did not build a hidden shipyard pre-Yawata strike they don't live up to the standards we expect of them these days. These characters, minus Hauptman, are supposed to think about what worst case scenarios can happen and do what needs to be done to prevent them even if the chances of them happening are slim. This specific theme(disaster planning) has been repeated in many war room discussions in many of these books. And I do hope that David uses a better code word when this scenario eventually(hopefully ) comes to light.

Boltholes are hard. You need a system nobody else knows about, preferably capable of supporting a moderate to large population. It has to be independent because otherwise, you'll need to send regular supply convoys in addition to the start-up investment. More traffic heightens the risk of giving its location away. The real estate around Manticore is well surveyed by many, unlike the north-east quarter of Haven.

They were starting to invest in Trevor's Star's facilities and I suspect in time it will become a full fledged production center equal to one of Manticore's planets. But Basilisk and Grendelsbane had been attacked and the rest were either barren or in shared sovereignty. An out-system shipyard would need to be assigned defenses even if it was to be secret.

Additional shipyards may be established in Talbott Cluster or Silesia.

Hutch wrote:

JPMorgan wrote:If H. Harrington, H. Alexander, P. Benjamin, S. Hemphill and K. Hauptman didn't take a page from the Havenites Bolthole and did not build a hidden shipyard pre-Yawata strike they don't live up to the standards we expect of them these days. These characters, minus Hauptman, are supposed to think about what worst case scenarios can happen and do what needs to be done to prevent them even if the chances of them happening are slim. This specific theme(disaster planning) has been repeated in many war room discussions in many of these books. And I do hope that David uses a better code word when this scenario eventually(hopefully ) comes to light.

To some extent they did (called Gredelsbane; didn't end up well). And yes, I know that wasn't a 'secret' shipyard, but it was an effort to spread out the risk, so that a single attack wouldn't cripple production.

But remember that Manticore was, until late in the game, a relatively small polity; five planets if you count Baslisk and Sna Marino in three systems. Haven had literally hundreds of systems to draw from, both for personnel and location; Manticore would have had to find one that was (1) Near enough to support (2) Far enough away from Haven and (3) Had enough resources and manpower (theres was stretched to the limit maintaining the current war effort.

In the end, they figured having three centers (Manticore, Grason and Grendlesbane) would be the best way to go; one can argue that they should have seen both surprise attacks coming, but that is hindsight talking, and hindsight always has 20/20 vision...

IMHO as always. YMMV.

But wouldn't a Hauptman, Harrington, Montaigne partnership be able to afford this out of pocket since they are in the top 100 richest humans club? If Protector Benjamin wanted to help he could do as he pleases with nobody able to nay say him. The Alexander brothers would also push pretty hard for this idea and Honor would obviously include them in the idea stage. Even horrible Hemphill would be on board.
The moment the wheels came off and the Havenites attacked after the first cease fire with those Highridge idiots, Harrington and company should have begun Operation Treehouse.

Duckk wrote:That presumes that Manticore had the capability to make the massive monetary and industrial investment needed to build a secret shipyard disappear. Given how badly Thunderbolt put the screws on the Alliance, it's a certainty that they didn't invest in a Bolthole.

It also presumes that Manticore was willing to jump through the hoops necessary to create a completely black project and hide the budget line items in a publicly debated budget.

Haven managed Bolthole because it was established under the CPS with attendant paranoid secrecy as was normal for any CPS project. The restored Republic of Haven didn't manage to hide the budget for Bolthole and it would have been as "secret" as "Area 51/Groom Lake" is today.