What is the path to electricity?

McGuiness wrote:So have OWL build a fabber, have the lorry take it into orbit, and send it off to an asteroid. There it can use whatever TF tech is required to build additional fabbers that can create something powerful enough to take out the OBS. Then do it!

Do it YESTERDAY. That fabber bootstrapping is an exponential growth curve, and exponential curves start out slow.

There are three _known_ high-tech systems for use by the bad guys: the OBS, the Key, and whatever allows the Archangels to return. How many more relics are waiting? What's the TF-tech equivalent of an unexploded artillery round? People are still finding dangerous weapons on WW I battlefields. Are there abandoned and forgotten AIs, stable or otherwise?

Not even knowing the order of battle, Merlin should not be content with the scraps that the Alexandrites were able to hide. Let's keep perspective -- Merlin is, face it, an expensive toy. Against whatever is under the Temple, against whatever is in orbit and so stealthed he hasn't found it, he'd better be accumulating materiel.

Meanwhile, if they just knew it, the Safeholders are using electricity every time they do something chemical. Wait until they find out that a fire is equivalent to a shorted-out fuel cell.

EDIT: Will Clyntahn write himself a dispensation if he finds out that electricity can be used to torture people?

Electricity ala Deathworld Trilogy!

Remember the large Leyden jar built in the third book?

Remember the priests really liked the arc furnace when they found they would feed people into it!

I personally like the idea of the Terran School for War Orphans where all of the orphans are taught based on TF ideas...

It would build a fifth column that could be placed in an uninhabited out of the way place, and as the group grows and like minded people gravitate to it, by existing it would push the proscription against electricity...

shaeun wrote:I personally like the idea of the Terran School for War Orphans where all of the orphans are taught based on TF ideas...

It would build a fifth column that could be placed in an uninhabited out of the way place, and as the group grows and like minded people gravitate to it, by existing it would push the proscription against electricity...

Provided the OBS is neutralized first of course. Otherwise the Terran School for War Orphans would quickly become a smoking crater...

McGuiness wrote:

shaeun wrote:I personally like the idea of the Terran School for War Orphans where all of the orphans are taught based on TF ideas...

It would build a fifth column that could be placed in an uninhabited out of the way place, and as the group grows and like minded people gravitate to it, by existing it would push the proscription against electricity...

Provided the OBS is neutralized first of course. Otherwise the Terran School for War Orphans would quickly become a smoking crater...

You do not use electricity or teach applied physics... There is a huge store of philosophy and soft sciences that are quite possible to be taught - in addition they could be taught what the OBS is... and why electricity can not be used...

computing could even be taught using virtual equipment (contacts and a snarc) would generate a fake computer screen...

In any event advanced maths, advanced mechanical skills... these skills would help to accelerate the technological growth of safehold

SWM wrote:You have missed something. The ancient Greeks knew about static electricity over 2500 years ago. It is quite simple to create static electricity. Amber and fur can produce quite shocking amounts of static electricity. Safehold certainly knows of the existence of static electricity in situations not associated with storms.

The Proscriptions go into such details about electricity specifically because it is so easy to accidentally discover. The problem is not getting the general populace used to the concept of electricity--the problem is convincing them that it is not a holy symbol of the power of Langhorne.

There's one path I can see to try and sidestep the Prohibitions. But it would have to wait until after Charis wins the war and, at minimum, establishes their Church as being on an equal footing (with respect to religious legitimacy) as the original CoGA. (And it would work even better if, in the process of losing the war, Clyntahn is the one that puts forth the concept that anything done by the Church, for her Holy Purpose, isn't a violation of the prohibitions)


Then they could then slowly introduce Church use of electricity under that loophole; presenting it as the Church using Langhorne's Holy Symbol to aid his Children. Then slowly spiral out its usage to things like Church run welfare organizations and hospitals, then again out to Church approved public benefit/safety uses, then even later out to Church licensed commercial or private use.

Between rationalization, Church approval of each use, and slow spread that might get people acclimated to electricity before having to convince everyone to directly ignore that Prohibition.



Of course is possible that the 'Archangles' anticipated that approach and the wording around electricity already include a specific prohibition against any use; even by the Church. But they might not have; or if they thought of it might not have wanted to raise the idea that the Church herself might err so much as to need a specific reminder that the rules apply to her as well...

Jonathan_S wrote:

SWM wrote:You have missed something. The ancient Greeks knew about static electricity over 2500 years ago. It is quite simple to create static electricity. Amber and fur can produce quite shocking amounts of static electricity. Safehold certainly knows of the existence of static electricity in situations not associated with storms.

The Proscriptions go into such details about electricity specifically because it is so easy to accidentally discover. The problem is not getting the general populace used to the concept of electricity--the problem is convincing them that it is not a holy symbol of the power of Langhorne.

There's one path I can see to try and sidestep the Prohibitions. But it would have to wait until after Charis wins the war and, at minimum, establishes their Church as being on an equal footing (with respect to religious legitimacy) as the original CoGA. (And it would work even better if, in the process of losing the war, Clyntahn is the one that puts forth the concept that anything done by the Church, for her Holy Purpose, isn't a violation of the prohibitions)


Then they could then slowly introduce Church use of electricity under that loophole; presenting it as the Church using Langhorne's Holy Symbol to aid his Children. Then slowly spiral out its usage to things like Church run welfare organizations and hospitals, then again out to Church approved public benefit/safety uses, then even later out to Church licensed commercial or private use.

Between rationalization, Church approval of each use, and slow spread that might get people acclimated to electricity before having to convince everyone to directly ignore that Prohibition.



Of course is possible that the 'Archangles' anticipated that approach and the wording around electricity already include a specific prohibition against any use; even by the Church. But they might not have; or if they thought of it might not have wanted to raise the idea that the Church herself might err so much as to need a specific reminder that the rules apply to her as well...

This is just a reminder that Merlin's biggest worry here is not so much the proscriptions as concern about getting pasted by kenitic weapons by the OBS. Don't need another Armageddon Reef...especially not Charis!

Don

n7axw wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:There's one path I can see to try and sidestep the Prohibitions. But it would have to wait until after Charis wins the war and, at minimum, establishes their Church as being on an equal footing (with respect to religious legitimacy) as the original CoGA. (And it would work even better if, in the process of losing the war, Clyntahn is the one that puts forth the concept that anything done by the Church, for her Holy Purpose, isn't a violation of the prohibitions)


Then they could then slowly introduce Church use of electricity under that loophole; presenting it as the Church using Langhorne's Holy Symbol to aid his Children. Then slowly spiral out its usage to things like Church run welfare organizations and hospitals, then again out to Church approved public benefit/safety uses, then even later out to Church licensed commercial or private use.

Between rationalization, Church approval of each use, and slow spread that might get people acclimated to electricity before having to convince everyone to directly ignore that Prohibition.



Of course is possible that the 'Archangles' anticipated that approach and the wording around electricity already include a specific prohibition against any use; even by the Church. But they might not have; or if they thought of it might not have wanted to raise the idea that the Church herself might err so much as to need a specific reminder that the rules apply to her as well...

This is just a reminder that Merlin's biggest worry here is not so much the proscriptions as concern about getting pasted by kenitic weapons by the OBS. Don't need another Armageddon Reef...especially not Charis!

Don

True. Though presumably after Charis wins the war, Merlin can focus on removing the threat of the orbital bombardment system - and would be wise to do so before pushing for electrical use.

Actually I see that he has 4 concerns around electricity - and my speculation did not address all of them.
1) Get Safehold accepting of electricity / electronics as a step towards rebuilding the Terran Federation tech base
2) At some point along that path repeal or break the Prohibitions allowing fuller freedom to develop the necessary tech
3) While doing this avoid triggering the OBS.
4) During all this eventual electrical innovation continue to minimize gbaba detectable signals. (puts a crimp on radio and radar)

That last may be tricky one people outside the main circle start playing with electricity... Maybe it is better not to try my approach and hold off on electricity until after the real truth has been revealed. That allows the rigid and arbitrary Proscriptions to be replaced by practical emission control rules prior to letting radio producing technology out of the bag...

The risk of detection from experimental emissions is overblown. At the apparent distance involved you would have to do the equivalent of jumping up and down waving your arms and blowing raspberries to be noticed; no one will generate a signal bright enough to be noticed otherwise. The galaxy is a noisy, noisy place.

On top of that is the fact that the Federation, based on information not available to us, seems to have concluded that the Gbaba would not be actively looking for such signals. They just want to be left alone - but for some reason have decided that putting up giant No Trespassing signs around their frontiers doesn't cut it. Too many cats and monkeys in the neighbourhood, I guess.

Jonathan_S wrote:True. Though presumably after Charis wins the war, Merlin can focus on removing the threat of the orbital bombardment system - and would be wise to do so before pushing for electrical use.

Actually I see that he has 4 concerns around electricity - and my speculation did not address all of them.
1) Get Safehold accepting of electricity / electronics as a step towards rebuilding the Terran Federation tech base
2) At some point along that path repeal or break the Prohibitions allowing fuller freedom to develop the necessary tech
3) While doing this avoid triggering the OBS.
4) During all this eventual electrical innovation continue to minimize gbaba detectable signals. (puts a crimp on radio and radar)

That last may be tricky one people outside the main circle start playing with electricity... Maybe it is better not to try my approach and hold off on electricity until after the real truth has been revealed. That allows the rigid and arbitrary Proscriptions to be replaced by practical emission control rules prior to letting radio producing technology out of the bag...

Louis R wrote:The risk of detection from experimental emissions is overblown. At the apparent distance involved you would have to do the equivalent of jumping up and down waving your arms and blowing raspberries to be noticed; no one will generate a signal bright enough to be noticed otherwise. The galaxy is a noisy, noisy place.

On top of that is the fact that the Federation, based on information not available to us, seems to have concluded that the Gbaba would not be actively looking for such signals. They just want to be left alone - but for some reason have decided that putting up giant No Trespassing signs around their frontiers doesn't cut it. Too many cats and monkeys in the neighbourhood, I guess.

Jonathan_S wrote:True. Though presumably after Charis wins the war, Merlin can focus on removing the threat of the orbital bombardment system - and would be wise to do so before pushing for electrical use.

Actually I see that he has 4 concerns around electricity - and my speculation did not address all of them.
1) Get Safehold accepting of electricity / electronics as a step towards rebuilding the Terran Federation tech base
2) At some point along that path repeal or break the Prohibitions allowing fuller freedom to develop the necessary tech
3) While doing this avoid triggering the OBS.
4) During all this eventual electrical innovation continue to minimize gbaba detectable signals. (puts a crimp on radio and radar)

That last may be tricky one people outside the main circle start playing with electricity... Maybe it is better not to try my approach and hold off on electricity until after the real truth has been revealed. That allows the rigid and arbitrary Proscriptions to be replaced by practical emission control rules prior to letting radio producing technology out of the bag...

Exactly. The danger is actually negligable to non existant. The normal transmission of an electrically transmitted signal spreads in all directions and as distance increases weakens until until the energy is expended and then falls below detectable level and is gone. That would happen well before the Gbaba could hear it.

The colony that was detected was using federation tech which involved handwavium of a higher order. But dectection of ordinary real life radio or electricity? Nope.

Don