Oh No! I like Rayno! (SPOILERS)

I think that the thing that people are finding "appealing" about Rayno is that compared to Clyntahn (at least as seen in the text) is that Rayno appears both sane and competent.

There's no doubt that he's made his bed, and so on. And it does seem like the only way that he could get another promotion would be to personally take out Clyntahn. But however competent and sane Rayno might also appear to the rest of the vicars, I have to suspect that the vast majority of his power is due to the fact that he's been Clyntahn's right hand man. And with Clyntahn out of the way, that power would largely evaporate and very few would follow his orders once it had truly sunk in that Clyntahn was gone. Other power brokers, starting with the remaining 3 in the GoF, would struggle for power, and Rayno, no matter how much he might wish otherwuse, might be lucky to escape with his skin intact (and if he wasn't so lucky, he might be found in some gutter with his throat cut).


Anyways, I think that a sane and competent Rayno looks oh so much better when one compares him to an insane Clyntahn. But as has been suggested above, I suspect that if we could see some of the things Rayno has done "off screen", I doubt that there'd be nearly as much sympathy for him.

It seems it's a good time for some to reread Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem (or read it if they haven't yet). The subtitle was A Report on the Banality of Evil.

Hadn't thought of suggesting Arendt, although she and her analysis were brought to mind not long ago. The similarity is striking.

niethil wrote:It seems it's a good time for some to reread Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem (or read it if they haven't yet). The subtitle was A Report on the Banality of Evil.

niethil wrote:It seems it's a good time for some to reread Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem (or read it if they haven't yet). The subtitle was A Report on the Banality of Evil.

Louis R wrote:Hadn't thought of suggesting Arendt, although she and her analysis were brought to mind not long ago. The similarity is striking.

Interesting. I must admit I'm one of the people who have not heard much of this book before, but I guess I'll look into it now.

Randomiser wrote:Is it just me or was Rayno written up a lot more sympathetically in this book? I found myself strangely warming to the guy, at least a whole lot more than before. It's something to do with him having to cope with Clyntahn every day I think, and getting more insight into the way he, sometimes desperately, tries to manage his boss. On the other hand, it may just be that Clyntahn is getting so loopy that Rayno begins to look like the voice of reason and sanity compared to him.

From the series Babylon 5:

Technomage: "You do not frighten easily".

Vir Cotto: "I work for Ambassador Londo Mollari - After a while nothing frightens you".

Expert snuggler wrote:We'd be less sympathetic if we saw what Rayno does when he's not trying to manage Clyntahn.

Does he pull the wings off flies? Read feeelthy magazines? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

crucisnh wrote:I think that the thing that people are finding "appealing" about Rayno is that compared to Clyntahn (at least as seen in the text) is that Rayno appears both sane and competent.

Exactly, yes. Rayno's POV is used to draw the distinctions between world-according-to-Clyntahn and world-according-to-world. Sanity and competence are charming, in themselves, and Rayno's role spotlights those virtues.

But you've got to remember that Safehold's burning because of Clyntahn, and Clyntahn is where he is and can do what he does in large part precisely because he's got Rayno as an interface between him and reality. Rayno converts evil and crazy to evil and as effective as possible. If he cared the slightest bit about not being evil, not letting it happen, not helping it happen and doing it well, Clyntahn would never have been Grand Inquisitor; the Circle would be alive, well, and reforming the CoGA, possibly having brought Duchairn at least into their orbit by example; Charis and Siddarmark would be encouraging that Reformist movement from the outside; Merlin would be quietly backing that and the Royal College's embrace of inquiry, and likely shepherding good relations among the Out Islands. Most importantly, hundreds of millions of people would still be alive and well.

Oh, and Rayno can be worse than Clyntahn in some ways. He's cranky about how Clyntahn's been thrilled to arm millions of Harchong's serfs for fear of what that will mean for him and his family. Clyntahn, at least, does not care that his jihad may actually end slavery and serfdom in Harchong. Rayno does case and very much hates and fears that possibility. So yeah, he's the hero of human bondage in the Temple. Keep that front and center. Got a problem with people being worked to death in the camps? Happy when they are freed? Like the guards and inquisitors who try to make it any less bad? Congratulations - you recognize, or should, that conditions rather like that have been a fact of life in Harchong for vastly larger numbers of people for hundreds of years - and Rayno wants that to go on forever.

That scene had me almost liking Clyntahn by contrast.

Given our Author's DEVIOUS mind, I hesitate to think of a certain fate for Archbishop Wyllym Rayno but here is my speculation for two possibilities.

ONE: Rayno reprises the late Bishop of Hanth, Mylz Halcom, in leading the armed 'resistance' movement of the Temple Loyalists after the military defeat of the COGA. As the most powerful subordinate of Clyntahn, he is in the best position to start hiding assets when the stench of defeat starts to smell. As Vicar Clyntahn is too visible and powerful to easily escape the fall of Zion, the same 'probably' would not be true of Rayno, especially if he was on a mission for the Vicar at the time.

TWO: Rayno becomes Safehold's Saul of Tarsus. Having labored in the 'belly of the beast' for so long, he has an even stronger conversion than Duchairn and becomes a closet Reformist. This perhaps happens after Clyntahn gets desperate and orders him to look for 'Holy Relics' in the basement. There he discovers the 'real' Archangel Schueler and is converted.

This would lead to a very interesting sub-story of how he maintains his concealment, subverts Clyntahn and tries to keep on going in the depths of the swamp. Imagine the struggle to keep from pulling a Khapahr and killing Clyntahn before the inevitable, when he knows he remains more valuable staying alive.

Charybdis wrote:Given our Author's DEVIOUS mind, I hesitate to think of a certain fate for Archbishop Wyllym Rayno but here is my speculation for two possibilities.

ONE: Rayno reprises the late Bishop of Hanth, Mylz Halcom, in leading the armed 'resistance' movement of the Temple Loyalists after the military defeat of the COGA. As the most powerful subordinate of Clyntahn, he is in the best position to start hiding assets when the stench of defeat starts to smell. As Vicar Clyntahn is too visible and powerful to easily escape the fall of Zion, the same 'probably' would not be true of Rayno, especially if he was on a mission for the Vicar at the time.

TWO: Rayno becomes Safehold's Saul of Tarsus. Having labored in the 'belly of the beast' for so long, he has an even stronger conversion than Duchairn and becomes a closet Reformist. This perhaps happens after Clyntahn gets desperate and orders him to look for 'Holy Relics' in the basement. There he discovers the 'real' Archangel Schueler and is converted.

This would lead to a very interesting sub-story of how he maintains his concealment, subverts Clyntahn and tries to keep on going in the depths of the swamp. Imagine the struggle to keep from pulling a Khapahr and killing Clyntahn before the inevitable, when he knows he remains more valuable staying alive.

I think both scenarios rely on there being more inside Rayno's soul - that is, anything - than we have reason to suppose there is.

He's a smart man who works a system well for personal power, wealth, status, and satisfaction. He'll accept the Writ and Safeholdian theology as a matter of fact, but it's not the sort of thing that grabs him as a matter of value. It's his world and that is all part of the gears of it, the levers a smart man in a good position works to get the world to kick out goodies for him.

If the CoGA goes down, Rayno will be looking for cover, not to be some guerrilla leader. World changes, Rayno changes. If he sees it coming, he may be preparing a paper trail to suggest that he was only following orders, at worst, or even trying as well as he could to temper Clyntahn's excesses. He may not retain power, but he would like to retain breathing.

He's not going to see the light. He doesn't have the metaphorical eyes for it. Duchairn had a faith he'd forgotten and recovered; Rayno has had only an appreciation of what gets him stuff. He may fake spirituality to keep breathing and maybe get a better position, but I doubt he thinks he could pull that off convincingly and he's probably right.

Expert snuggler wrote:We'd be less sympathetic if we saw what Rayno does when he's not trying to manage Clyntahn.

Precisely!

First, he is very anxious not to foster any whiff of future revolution in Harchong.

Secondly, note that he diverts resources away from Rainbow Waters.