[Spoiler] The final chapter

I haven't read this entire thread, but I have some thoughts to add.

Let's consider that Thirsk really isn't the first enemy commander who might choose to defect. Nor the first enemy commander whose family Charis has also taken in and given refuge. (Though, yes, he probably would be the most significant one to date in the series.) Remember that there was one (or was it two?) Desnairian admirals who fought as well and as hard as they could in defense of Desnair's largest naval base 2-3 books ago and after surrendering their forces, requested asylum in Charis for themselves and their families.

And while Thirsk would perhaps be the most significant character to date to have this occur, and yes, his family was "rescued" before any defection (were it to occur, of course) rather than included in the asylum request, the commonalities seem much greater than any differences.

In short, if Charis can hide the families of other defecting military leaders, there's no reason the same couldn't be true for Thirsk's family and possibly himself.


As for Thirsk taking up service in the Charisian Navy, I don't see it, at least for a while. For one thing, I don't see him being able to fight against his fellow countrymen. That seems like it'd be a bridge too far for Thirsk. I think that he'd be like other significant military characters in the series who have only taken up service with Charis after their own nation has become a part of the Charisian Empire. Having said that, it'd be a shame to see such an interesting character effectively disappear.

crucisnh wrote:
In short, if Charis can hide the families of other defecting military leaders, there's no reason the same couldn't be true for Thirsk's family and possibly himself.

But the Charisians haven't hidden the families of the 2 Desnairian nobles. They have kept them safe, but everyone knows they are in Charis. The problem with Thirsk's family is entirely different; their existence has to be kept secret.

given that Hecktor's Crew will have seen them it is doubtful that they can be kept hidden. No matter how well meaning the crew may be when sober. once the alcohol hits there are no guarantees and I can't see Hecktor forbidding his crew to drink for the next X years until the war is over or Thirsk does whatever he is going to do.

A potentially honorable fudge is for Thirsk to move, at his initiative or that of his political enemies in Dohlar, to rebuild the Desnairian navy.

Randomiser wrote:

crucisnh wrote:
In short, if Charis can hide the families of other defecting military leaders, there's no reason the same couldn't be true for Thirsk's family and possibly himself.

But the Charisians haven't hidden the families of the 2 Desnairian nobles. They have kept them safe, but everyone knows they are in Charis. The problem with Thirsk's family is entirely different; their existence has to be kept secret.

It seems to me that when "everyone" thinks that they're dead, the rest becomes vastly easier. Well, as long as the family is willing to change their identities, I suppose.

Actually, the secret only has to be kept until it doesn't matter: either it's no longer possible for it slipping out to lead to Thirsk's immediate execution, or it's apparent that that is in fact the best outcome. I rather doubt that His Lordship feels any strong urges towards martyrdom, so the latter is pretty unlikely, but not yet excluded by the evidence.

Either way, by the time they reach Charisian territory things may well have played out to the point where they don't _need_ to hide.

Randomiser wrote:But the Charisians haven't hidden the families of the 2 Desnairian nobles. They have kept them safe, but everyone knows they are in Charis. The problem with Thirsk's family is entirely different; their existence has to be kept secret.

Dauntless wrote:given that Hecktor's Crew will have seen them it is doubtful that they can be kept hidden. No matter how well meaning the crew may be when sober. once the alcohol hits there are no guarantees and I can't see Hecktor forbidding his crew to drink for the next X years until the war is over or Thirsk does whatever he is going to do.

Easiest way to hide the fact that the rescue took place?

Send the ship on a year long voyage (or something similar - such as carrying mail to Claw's Island).

By the time the ship gets back, the crew would have other better stories to tell, and the information has aged enough (i.e. Thirsk has already acted) that the information is now useless.....

(Remember "The Hunt for Red October" - an extended tour was what helped USS Pogy and Dallas crews forget the defection of the Red October.)

MWadwell wrote:Easiest way to hide the fact that the rescue took place?

Send the ship on a year long voyage (or something similar - such as carrying mail to Claw's Island).

By the time the ship gets back, the crew would have other better stories to tell, and the information has aged enough (i.e. Thirsk has already acted) that the information is now useless.....

(Remember "The Hunt for Red October" - an extended tour was what helped USS Pogy and Dallas crews forget the defection of the Red October.)

A nice idea, but that carries some problems with it:
- The Archbishop would flay you for banishing children for a year or more onto a small ship with all its dangers (and if you off-ship them first, you replicate the same problem on the next Ship to carry them).
- Sending the duke into effective banishment would be ... interesting, speaking internal politics.
- Sending the husband of Princess Irys into effective exile would be ... considerably more than interesting. In the Chinese sense of the word.
- Avoiding above both situations would require them to strip our dear Duke of his first command (quite a slap in the face)

And in the end, I don't believe it really matters whether the inquisition finds out. Clynthan wants Thirsk's head, whether the hostages are dead or in enemy hands, so I plead in favor of avoiding all the hassle and rather profit from doing it all in public. The propaganda value is after all a nice bonus to doing the right thing here.

Cheers,
Bosparan

Ps.: Please also note, that your comparison comes from another book. How realistic that is stands open to debate. I don't know, we're talking about seasoned sailors here and receiving some children, grand-children and sons-in-law of an enemy admiral might stick in memory better than ... the absolutely routine daily drill. Even with some nautical hazards thrown in for good measure.

Randomiser wrote:While it might be nice to imagine Thirsk pulling off a coup, I can't see it. Thirsk's status seems to be complex and, I think, misunderstood by many posters (possibly because they are too used to living in a democracy) The Navy thinks Thirsk is wonderful, the public, to some extent, think he is a naval hero. The political class, as evidenced by the royal council, think he is only an earl, has very little support among the people who matter, i.e. the politically minded aristocracy, and is only accepted on sufferance because the Navy is kind of needed just now. In a society like Dohlar, that is nowhere near enough political cover for a coup. Politically speaking, Ahlvahrez' situation is even worse, and he has much less grip on the Army than Thirsk has on the Navy. So I can't see a coup, even if his honour would allow it.

(SNIP)

What I see happening, is for Thirsk to organise a navy-back coup with the current king (King Rahnyld) volunteering to step aside, on the condition that Thirsk is his son's Regent.

MWadwell wrote:What I see happening, is for Thirsk to organise a navy-back coup with the current king (King Rahnyld) volunteering to step aside, on the condition that Thirsk is his son's Regent.

What I'd like to see is any plausible reason why Thirsk would be in a position to do anything of the kind.
Remember there were enough Temple Loyalists in Siddarmark to allow something like the Sword of Schueler. Sure, a fair portion of the sailors would follow Thirsk in a coup attempt, but not close to all. Not when it goes against the Church's desires. Then there's the military, which would mostly stay crown loyal (remember: Rivalry Army vs. Navy) and fight on familiar grounds.
And even if he overcomes all these obstacles, Thirsk does not have the support of the nobility (who administer the kingdom after all), and I'm sure Clynthan could spare a Rakurai or two for the "Apostate and eternally damned traitor and king slayer" (never mind whether the king is actually dead, when have facts ever stopped Clynthan from proclaiming whatever he wants to proclaim ...?).

So, any textev or argument in favor of why he could pull it off?