Official Safehold Speculation Thread

It just hit me as a distraction from leaf raking that the Reveal is going to be even harder than we've realized.

Suppose you convince people that Jwo-Jeng was a mere human and try to argue that the Proscriptions are bogus. That's already hard work.

A CoGA theologian could very easily counter that the Proscriptions have been part of God's plan for eternity, that the Gbaba were God's way of punishing the Terran Federation for violating them, and that Jwo-Jeng was divinely inspired.

It's a terrifyingly plausible argument. It even explains why the Gbaba won in the face of all the TF's unmatched technological innovation.

It's an argument that will influence people because it appeals to both reason and fear. The Gbaba could take the emotional place now occupied by Langhorne's holy wrath.

How would you even counter it?

Simple. The Proscriptions were never divinely inspired because Jwo-jeng, Langehorn et al were emotionally traumatized humans. Their psychoticly warped brainchild was never supported by God. If He did, Shan-wei's arrows would have missed.

Expert snuggler wrote:It just hit me as a distraction from leaf raking that the Reveal is going to be even harder than we've realized.

Suppose you convince people that Jwo-Jeng was a mere human and try to argue that the Proscriptions are bogus. That's already hard work.

A CoGA theologian could very easily counter that the Proscriptions have been part of God's plan for eternity, that the Gbaba were God's way of punishing the Terran Federation for violating them, and that Jwo-Jeng was divinely inspired.

It's a terrifyingly plausible argument. It even explains why the Gbaba won in the face of all the TF's unmatched technological innovation.

It's an argument that will influence people because it appeals to both reason and fear. The Gbaba could take the emotional place now occupied by Langhorne's holy wrath.

How would you even counter it?

n7axw wrote:To capture records, Merlin is going to have to find a computer to hack. I doubt that there would be any hard copy musting away in old fashioned filing cabinets...

Don

He DOES have a computer to hack. It's called "the Key".

All hacking attempts appear to have been a bust so far, mostly because Nahrman and OWL don't want to accidentally trigger a purge of the files.

So they have an enemy computing system under the most ideal circumstances they could arrange (physical access in the most secure location that have with plenty of time to work) and still can't access the content they want. So how are they supposed to hack Temple computers when the circumstances for doing so are likely to be FAR LESS ideal (unsecure location, limited time, can't use best people and tools, and the possibility that the Temple computers might be ARMED enough to SHOOT anyone trying to hack them)?

There's a good reason why most security compromises are done via social engineering. The problem is that as far as they know, NO ONE in the Temple (that's currently alive) has the kind of access they want, which makes social engineering for the purposes of hacking kind of pointless.

Well said, well reasoned.

There's a problem with my idea of inventing new attack tools. It's not like the Temple has an Internet presence. Attempts to probe it would stand out like a thunderstorm in a desert. Without some knowledge of the territory, all an attack tool could accomplish is triggering an IDS.

evilauthor wrote:

n7axw wrote:To capture records, Merlin is going to have to find a computer to hack. I doubt that there would be any hard copy musting away in old fashioned filing cabinets...

Don

He DOES have a computer to hack. It's called "the Key".

All hacking attempts appear to have been a bust so far, mostly because Nahrman and OWL don't want to accidentally trigger a purge of the files.

So they have an enemy computing system under the most ideal circumstances they could arrange (physical access in the most secure location that have with plenty of time to work) and still can't access the content they want. So how are they supposed to hack Temple computers when the circumstances for doing so are likely to be FAR LESS ideal (unsecure location, limited time, can't use best people and tools, and the possibility that the Temple computers might be ARMED enough to SHOOT anyone trying to hack them)?

There's a good reason why most security compromises are done via social engineering. The problem is that as far as they know, NO ONE in the Temple (that's currently alive) has the kind of access they want, which makes social engineering for the purposes of hacking kind of pointless.

They don't have a computer. They have what seems to be the equivalent of a drive with files. I'm wondering if they could develop a new AI in a seperate physical place isolated from what is currently on hand in Nimue's cave, plug the key in and monitor what happens when all those exe files start to let fly.

I'm not really convinced this is a good idea, by the way.

Don

n7axw wrote:They don't have a computer. They have what seems to be the equivalent of a drive with files.

Which should be even EASIER to hack than an active computer that can oppose them. But they can't even so much as make working copies of the files without risking triggering a purge.

Although from the descriptions of the Key being able to play messages, it's NOT just a hard drive. There's SOME minimal built in computing power or else message playback wouldn't be possible. And don't forget that Merlin's "brain" (located in his torso) is about the same size as the Key, or even smaller. The Key may be the size of a softball, but that should be large enough to hold enough computing capacity to recognize a hacking attempt and trigger a purge while still incorporating a holoprojector and enough memory to hold that 12 petabyte file.

Edit: Also, recognizing a hacking attempt isn't anywhere near as demanding on processing power as trying to say, run a human mind.

evilauthor wrote:

n7axw wrote:They don't have a computer. They have what seems to be the equivalent of a drive with files.

Which should be even EASIER to hack than an active computer that can oppose them. But they can't even so much as make working copies of the files without risking triggering a purge.

Although from the descriptions of the Key being able to play messages, it's NOT just a hard drive. There's SOME minimal built in computing power or else message playback wouldn't be possible. And don't forget that Merlin's "brain" (located in his torso) is about the same size as the Key, or even smaller. The Key may be the size of a softball, but that should be large enough to hold enough computing capacity to recognize a hacking attempt and trigger a purge while still incorporating a holoprojector and enough memory to hold that 12 petabyte file.

Edit: Also, recognizing a hacking attempt isn't anywhere near as demanding on processing power as trying to say, run a human mind.

IIRC, the key and the stone had to be used together to produce the hologram. So is the computer power in the key itself or in the stone? I can see where plugging the key into an unauthorized computer could purge the files. But would that be more dangerous than plugging the thing into an authorized computer and having those exe files running amuck and out of control, doing what they were designed to do to start with?

Or maybe pitching the key into the middle of Erastor Bay to avoid the complication altogether like Nahrman had the impulse to do would be the thing to do.

Don

n7axw wrote:IIRC, the key and the stone had to be used together to produce the hologram. So is the computer power in the key itself or in the stone?

I would guess it's the key. And depending on Federation tech and computer architecture, there might not be any practical difference between hard drive and processor. They're all molycircs after all.

Also, I was under the impression that OWL only took the Key and that Paitr still has the Stone. AFAIK, the Stone only has a Verifier and power supply (with recharge unit) in it.

I can see where plugging the key into an unauthorized computer could purge the files.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Nahrmann and OWL have already done that. Because a pre-recorded holo-message for tech ignorant primitives isn't going to give the specifications on its file structure and contents. That requires AT LEAST enough access to list out the file directory, an action no proper Safeholdian should even know how to do.

But would that be more dangerous than plugging the thing into an authorized computer and having those exe files running amuck and out of control, doing what they were designed to do to start with?

Doubtful since they didn't do anything when OWL and Nahrman examined its file structure. Something they CAN'T do without powering it up and querying it for information.

Or maybe pitching the key into the middle of Erastor Bay to avoid the complication altogether like Nahrman had the impulse to do would be the thing to do.

Which would be bad if they had a sudden pressing need to use the Key or somehow gained the correct key codes for it.

Might there be a closed shelf in the Temple library with instructions about how to use some of the hidden equipment?

Clyntahn doesn't seem like the sort to do literature searches and if there is a restricted area it may not be open to competent lower-ranking people such as Rayno.

Expert snuggler wrote:Might there be a closed shelf in the Temple library with instructions about how to use some of the hidden equipment?

Clyntahn doesn't seem like the sort to do literature searches and if there is a restricted area it may not be open to competent lower-ranking people such as Rayno.

Probably not. The key and the stone were bestowed upon the Wylsyn family for specific reasons. It seems doubtful that any specifics about it would be lying around elsewhere.

This is not to say that there might not be other keys and stones, or something else of which we are not informed, bestowed on family members or close followers by other archangels for purposes that might not been congruent with Schueler's.

Don