tasos74 wrote:Rook wrote:tasos74 wrote:I will admit hydro-electric power is too much for the current tech base, and would be hit by a rakurai blast on completion. Is there a way other then steam and other "forbidden" to generate enough power for a ironclad vessel for instance? Other then having shifts of crew on stationary bikes or treadmills to power paddlewheels I cannot think of another way to provide the power sans wind which may not be enough once the ships get heavy enough. Initially it is possible to armor a sail powered ship, but that is a short window.
Perhaps Merlin could nudge towards pulley and gear systems to increase the amount of power generated to improve production. This is just another step as eventually the proscriptions are approached. Will this happen before or after the Go4 is dealt with? It will take several years to get a land force to deal with the numbers of Haven/Howard armies and to create the supply train. Even with Siddarmark coming onboard this could be a while.
The problem is, muscle power just doesn't scale well. Sure, you can do anything if you put enough people on it. However, on boat you are limited as to how many people you can put on it, and the you just cannot move a ship effectively with the muscle power.
Let's look as an example: Most US Civil War era Ironclads were extremely crampt, the USS Monitor could only hold 59 men. Of the 59 men, 12 men, including those in the engineering department filled support roles during a battle (extra manpower to make repairs, replace casualties, run powder and ammo, etc.). If you were to strip out the engine and use the space to house more people, you could probably fit another 6 men in. So, you would have 18 men available to move a ship that weighed 770 tons. Let's round that down to 700 tons, since we took out the 12 ton steam engine. 1 hp is defined as 10 times larger than 1 Manpower, so, you are trying to move your 700 ton ship with a 1.8hp 'engine'. Use pulleys and gear shifts all you want, the amount of energy available to push the ship is still only 1.8hp (or 1342.26 watts).
The speed at which such an engine can move that much weight depends on the amount of friction the sea will exert on the hull of the ship. I honestly have no idea how much friction that is, but I'm guessing that the speed would work out to a few hundred feet an hour. That's assuming that you are able to turn 100% of the energy the men are exerting onto forward motion and that there is no wind or current you have to work against as well. Obviously, it is not possible to effectively move an ironclad warship by muscle power.
Let's take a look at using muscle power in industry. A lathe capable of boring out a cannon would have to have at least 10hp, or 100 men. The manpower need is just too high compared to the benefit of running extra lathes... especially considering how strapped for warm bodies Charis is already.
You also need to take into account that muscle power has been around a lot longer on Safehold than waterwheels, and it is already integrated into the industry to its maximum efficiency.
Muscle power is not the grand new energy solution of the future on Safehold.
I agree with you on this point, I was not trying to pretend that even with gear shafts multiplying out purely muscle power would be feasible, but that you eventually reach the proscriptions and ideology/religious tenets must change or you reach a stopping point. It may very well be a close-minded abstract thought on my part. At a macro-level of Safehold there is a threshold at which most of the population is not... currently interested in crossing as it directly defies the writ and other central teachings of the only religion on the planet. This is a tough sell at best even for Old Charis and only DW knows what may propel the CE past such a hurtle. I have as an underlying notion that this will be reached before the Go4 is completely dealt with, which may be presumptuous of me. I imagine that even if Siddarmark is brought into the fold and a strike right into Zion is accomplished that this holy war will not end. There isn't a balance to the Go4 after the circle was destroyed and CE is getter larger by the book, still doesn't nullify Thirsk, Haven, or Howard for areas to be.... dealt with even if the temple lands are taken.
So my posit is not with technology completely, but with the underlining notions of the sanctity of the church (CoC or Mother Church) and it's beliefs verus survival/victory. Could be the lynchpin of next book for all I could guess.
Hi Tasos74,
Did you know the USS Constitution (~2000 tons) used a muscle powered paddle wheel (actually a pair) in the 1820's ? :-)
I suspect Merlin would say that Charis's biggest problem is getting more people to think scientifically (even if it isn't called that), ie to be "more logical, or rational" problem solvers; just as Edward Hosmyn was doing as an Iron master etc.
The excellent examples of Charisian problem solving leaders is creating a growing number of their subordinates who are problem solver examples for theirs, etc. But given all the things happening, it will be a long while before the effective problem solvers begin to match, let alone outnumber the respective problems they face.
Langhorne and friends did their best to kill the scientific method without ever mentioning it by name, but how do you ban problem solving, since its essential to survival ?
The proscriptions can be circumvented in a sense by a more experimental education system, that challenges the students to think, and to solve past problems to appreciate what was learned and experience that learning process personally, then go on to solve real problems. This part of the future of the Royal College.
And the secret is, once the Go4 or their surviving allies start thinking the same way to survive, Merlin will have won.
But I won't be surprised if Charis raids the temple in a couple of years or less, via temple bay, when they understand what Peter Wilson has. Meanwhile other capital cities are on the coast, and the Royal Chisholm Army has some good experience in logistics.
Imagine a couple of years from now, the temple land armies attempt to cut the raid off, only to discover every infantryman has a wide thick wheeled bicycle to carry his rations and kit etc, yet still average faster strategic marches than horse cavalry!
If Hosmyn only adds 2 more forges every month, how many explosive shells will he produce in 895 YoG ?
If only 100-120 shells (~5 volleys) are needed to destroy or burn a ship, how many effective ship kills is that annual total ?
How many multiples of annual temple ship production is that ?
How many shells should be expended by the ICN in 5-day training ?
I look forward to both answers and suggestions.
Best wishes,
L