[Spoiler] The final chapter

Expert snuggler wrote:

Henry Brown wrote:Thirsk is loyal to the Kingdom of Dohlar, not to the CoG. In fact, from all available text-ev in recent books he is fed up with the Inquisition. So I don't think it is out of the question that he could swallow the Reveal.

He has no illusions about the Inquisition but he's still loyal to the idealized Church that no longer exists except in his imagination and childhood memories.

He could be a Reformist. He is already in spirit. Where, though, has he shown the sort of emotional flexibility that would be required to believe that the Archangels were frauds? What could overcome his lifetime of defense mechanisms against letting doubt enter his mind?

I completely agree. Thirsk is very much like DE in that his belief in Mother Church (under proper management) is a huge part of who he is. Try to take that support away, and he'll simply reject it, since accepting that he's fought to support a lie all his life would destroy him.

He certainly feels no reason to support the Church of Clyntahn though, and the Inquisition is his sworn enemy. Merlin can work with that.

Merlin's goal is most likely to convince Thirsk to remain in his role as commander of the Dohlaran navy so that it will surrender quickly once the Haarahlds show up with the ability to destroy it. He'd also like Thirsk to subtlety work to convince Dohlar to sue for terms. Yes, I realize that's a tough proposition with the Inquisition breathing down Thirsk's neck, but right now he's Dohlar's golden boy, and there's nothing worse they could do to Dohlar's morale and support for the Jihad than to arrest Thirsk.

Expert snuggler wrote:

Henry Brown wrote:Thirsk is loyal to the Kingdom of Dohlar, not to the CoG. In fact, from all available text-ev in recent books he is fed up with the Inquisition. So I don't think it is out of the question that he could swallow the Reveal.

He has no illusions about the Inquisition but he's still loyal to the idealized Church that no longer exists except in his imagination and childhood memories.

He could be a Reformist. He is already in spirit. Where, though, has he shown the sort of emotional flexibility that would be required to believe that the Archangels were frauds? What could overcome his lifetime of defense mechanisms against letting doubt enter his mind?

Did I miss something in the characterization of Thirsk? Because I don't view him as an especially devout character. I mean, he believes in the CoG just like nearly every other person on Safehold. But his religious feelings seem to be run of the mill. To me, his true devotion seems to be to his kingdom. I think if his religious feelings ever come into conflict with his duty to Dohlar, duty wins out over religion.

I don't have a citation for it. Anybody?

Expert snuggler wrote:I don't have a citation for it. Anybody?

I don't remember exactly where it is, but IIRC, in the midst of a discussion within the inner circle about Thirsk, Merlin comments that Thirsk's faith goes right to the bone. Maybe that was part of an exchange with Dominyk...

Don

Thirsk is definitely not a fan of Clyntahn or the inquisition. But that doesn't mean he would turn reformist either. I think the whole section about Rynald wanting to abdicate, and being disengaged from running the country, is the set up for Fern, Thirsk, and Alverez taking over in one form or another. I don't think Merlin will give him the whole reveal, but more of something along the lines of "You guys kick out the inquisition, abstain from the war, and we won't smash you in the next few months. One way or the other though, your family is safe with us because we don't want anyone turned over to Clyntahn " I'm probably wrong, but that's my guess.

Adeon Hawkwood wrote:I'm leaning towards the "organize a coup" option (against the Church, not necessarily against the King). I think that there's no way Thirsk would take service with Charis, his loyalty to his country is to strong for that.

He might be willing to seek asylum in Charis, but I think that would be a last resort for him since it would mean abandoning the officers and men of the Dohlaran Navy (and Clyntahn would probably do a major purge of the navy to be on the safe side if Thirsk defects).

Given that I can definitely see him organizing a coup to move Dohlar to at least a neutral stance.

I agree.

One thing that I think most people are missing, is that while the ICA has a HUGE military advantage, it also has a HUGE population disadvantage. As a result, trying to garrison captured nations is going to be a hinderance to the war effort.

As a result, I believe that part of Merlins plan is to "wean" nations away from the CoGA, and help them becoming reformists.


To do this, he needs people who are high up in the conquered nations political enviroment, who support the dissolution of the CoGA.

I think that Thirsk (and Alverez) fit that description, and are being "groomed" by Merlin (and co) to start the process of removing the CoGA dominance from Dohlar.

The CoGA has undercut Thirk's sworn word. I can't think of a better way for them to have alienated a man with a sense of honor.

He will have to cross a Rubicon, though. He can't simply deport the Church personnel. They will fight. He will have to shed priestly blood. He certainly can't leave them in Dohlar and still make terms with the EoC.

Expert snuggler wrote:The CoGA has undercut Thirk's sworn word. I can't think of a better way for them to have alienated a man with a sense of honor.

I think that Merlin is spirit Thirsk away (probably his valet as well). With any luck at all, the officers of the Royal Dohlaran Navy will believe that the Inquisition kidnapped him (BTW, the Inquisition must have his townhouse under observation).

MWadwell wrote:

Adeon Hawkwood wrote:I'm leaning towards the "organize a coup" option (against the Church, not necessarily against the King). I think that there's no way Thirsk would take service with Charis, his loyalty to his country is to strong for that.

He might be willing to seek asylum in Charis, but I think that would be a last resort for him since it would mean abandoning the officers and men of the Dohlaran Navy (and Clyntahn would probably do a major purge of the navy to be on the safe side if Thirsk defects).

Given that I can definitely see him organizing a coup to move Dohlar to at least a neutral stance.

I agree.

One thing that I think most people are missing, is that while the ICA has a HUGE military advantage, it also has a HUGE population disadvantage. As a result, trying to garrison captured nations is going to be a hinderance to the war effort.

As a result, I believe that part of Merlins plan is to "wean" nations away from the CoGA, and help them becoming reformists.


To do this, he needs people who are high up in the conquered nations political enviroment, who support the dissolution of the CoGA.

I think that Thirsk (and Alverez) fit that description, and are being "groomed" by Merlin (and co) to start the process of removing the CoGA dominance from Dohlar.

Hi Matt,

Good to see your post. I couldn't more wholeheatedly agree that the last thing that the EOC needs is to be spreading armies of occupation around, the possible exception being Zion and the Temple lands.

Where moving in on Dohlar might be helpful would be to get rid of the inquisition. That would be the complicating factor to getting Dohlar out of the war at the moment.

Don

Just to repeat something I said earlier, Charis can not hide the fact that Thirsk's family is still alive indefinitely unless they're hiding in Nimue's Cave.

Thirsk wouldn't believe (unless he learns the Full Truth) that Charis could prevent the Main Church from learning that his family still lives.

Since I don't believe that Thirsk will leave Dohlar, something will have to change concerning Dohlar in the near future.

I am thinking that Thirsk will be involved in that change.

As others have mentioned, Dohlar quitting the war against Charis is the possible change.