Honorverse ramblings and musings

And of course, during the Battle of Manticore why didn't McKeon target Tourville's ship and take him out? That very well would have seriously wounded the RHN's moral and damaged their cohesiveness.

Because they didn't know which ship was his. They got lucky at Lovat in picking the flagship first, but the odds were relatively good that they'd do it in the first couple of salvos regardless. There were simply too few potential candidates for the flagship, given that the commander is located on a SD(P) or CLAC in the middle of the formation. At BoMA, even with his losses, Second Fleet had scores of SD(P)s and CLACs.

cthia wrote:What is what! Get a clue Giscard! Harrington had been scouting the system and she wouldn't dare suffer another Solon. You may fool Honor once, but the bidding stops there! They knew that!

Not saying he could have done anything about it. But they've been tangling with the Salamander all series. One thing they know about the Manties is that they don't run scared worth a damn and that this particular Manty don't phuck up! At least Giscard should have smelled a rat.

You are extrapolating far, far too much from a the single, brief scene in the book. You're coming to the conclusion you want to come to. David spends half a page on Giscard's reaction to TF82's incoming fire. It's a scene which takes maybe all of 1 minute in real life. Who are you to know what Giscard is thinking or what actions he takes in the rest of the time which we don't see?

You know. I never could figure out why the RHN didn't just key on Harrington - why they didn't launch everything they had on just one ship? Hers!

At this point in the clash of the titans, Harrington is, at least, one of the biggest strategic targets there is! And this time they knew her ship!

You're clearly not understanding what is going on in this battle. Giscard is perfectly willing to kill Honor if he can get to her. As was so amply demonstrated at Solon, even when at a numerical disadvantage, 8th Fleet could eat long ranged inaccurate MDM fire. Go read the text for the battle again. He clearly states he is not going to waste his time (and missiles) feebly battering away at 8th Fleet. His objective is to drive 8th Fleet towards the far more numerous system defense pods - controlled by Moriarty - which would have the power to defeat 8th Fleet. The plan was perfectly sound and would of trashed 8th Fleet had it worked. The plan flew apart when the rest of 8th Fleet destroys his pincer forces, and Honor unleashes Mistletoe.

I know that Tourville and Co. couldn't have just fled the system - and such an important system without a fight, especially not knowing what they were up against and thinking they had the advantage in firepower. But at some point in your career when facing the Salamander - the Harrington Treecat's MVP - considering her batting average, don't you have to contemplate walking her? Just don't pitch to her!

Again, just what the hell is he supposed to do? Apparently, you know better. So go ahead, share your tactical wisdom in how Giscard is supposed to extract himself when he's already been mousetrapped and missiles are flying.

Duckk wrote:

cthia wrote:What is what! Get a clue Giscard! Harrington had been scouting the system and she wouldn't dare suffer another Solon. You may fool Honor once, but the bidding stops there! They knew that!

Not saying he could have done anything about it. But they've been tangling with the Salamander all series. One thing they know about the Manties is that they don't run scared worth a damn and that this particular Manty don't phuck up! At least Giscard should have smelled a rat.

You are extrapolating far, far too much from a the single, brief scene in the book. You're coming to the conclusion you want to come to. David spends half a page on Giscard's reaction to TF82's incoming fire. It's a scene which takes maybe all of 1 minute in real life. Who are you to know what Giscard is thinking or what actions he takes in the rest of the time which we don't see?

You know. I never could figure out why the RHN didn't just key on Harrington - why they didn't launch everything they had on just one ship? Hers!

At this point in the clash of the titans, Harrington is, at least, one of the biggest strategic targets there is! And this time they knew her ship!

You're clearly not understanding what is going on in this battle. Giscard is perfectly willing to kill Honor if he can get to her. As was so amply demonstrated at Solon, even when at a numerical disadvantage, 8th Fleet could eat long ranged inaccurate MDM fire. Go read the text for the battle again. He clearly states he is not going to waste his time (and missiles) feebly battering away at 8th Fleet. His objective is to drive 8th Fleet towards the far more numerous system defense pods - controlled by Moriarty - which would have the power to defeat 8th Fleet. The plan was perfectly sound and would of trashed 8th Fleet had it worked. The plan flew apart when the rest of 8th Fleet destroys his pincer forces, and Honor unleashes Mistletoe.

I know that Tourville and Co. couldn't have just fled the system - and such an important system without a fight, especially not knowing what they were up against and thinking they had the advantage in firepower. But at some point in your career when facing the Salamander - the Harrington Treecat's MVP - considering her batting average, don't you have to contemplate walking her? Just don't pitch to her!

Again, just what the hell is he supposed to do? Apparently, you know better. So go ahead, share your tactical wisdom in how Giscard is supposed to extract himself when he's already been mousetrapped and missiles are flying.

Oh no, I wasn't implying that Giscard would actually have been able to alter the outcome, as I stated. I was just gob smacked that he didn't smell a rat. Honor almost always smells a rat, even when it's just a mouse. Even young Abigail has displayed the propensity to smell a rat. I would think that the better officers, certainly the experienced and seasoned officers, can. And I was just placing Giscard amongst those better officers. He consistently ranked high amongst readers in the TOP TEN TACTICIANS thread.

Regarding the wasting of the missiles, I know what you mean Duckk. Harrington showed that Eighth Fleet could swat inaccurate long ranged missiles like flies - eat them for lunch. The Manty defense was hellishly difficult to breech. I loved that passage.

BUT. My point was that the RHN has never known which ship Honor sat until now. And, IINM, the RHN has rarely, if ever, concentrated their fire on a single ship. Heck, on just a few ships.

Since this is the ONE time they actually IDed Honor's ship, I would have ruthlessly targeted it and it alone, hoping for a golden BB. At least a few long ranged salvos. Wasting the missiles going for a long shot would have been worth the possible payoff. IMHO.

Although I must admit that the elapsed time to battle may have been lost on me during all of the excitement.

cthia wrote:BUT. My point was that the RHN has never known which ship Honor sat until now. And, IINM, the RHN has rarely, if ever, concentrated their fire on a single ship. Heck, on just a few ships.

Since this is the ONE time they actually IDed Honor's ship, I would have ruthlessly targeted it and it alone, hoping for a golden BB. At least a few long ranged salvos. Wasting the missiles going for a long shot would have been worth the possible payoff. IMHO.

Although I must admit that the elapsed time to battle may have been lost on me during all of the excitement.

And what if Honor had anticipated such a tactic and transferred her flag? What if she(or BuShips/BuWeaps) came up with a trick to use decoys masquerading as her flagship to suck in all the missiles fired at her force, leaving all her other ships undamaged and free to concentrate on attacking RHN ships?

Remember that RHN ships use bigger missiles, bigger pods. That means they can carry fewer of them than RMN/GSN podnaughts. Ammunition endurance is definitely an issue for them - Second Fleet shot itself almost dry at Manticore, Tourville had to pull out and reload at Zanzibar. So continuing to fire wasn't something Giscard could do forever. Accuracy is another problem - at such long ranges, hitting a very specific unit in a cluster of dozens of ships, scores of ship-launched decoys, hundreds of LACs and the best EW systems any Navy in space had...

Recently we discussed whether Dreadnoughts can enter atmosphere and land on a planet.

Have we discussed the tactical possibilities of basing an entire fleet on a moon? There's no atmosphere to worry about or any of the many negatives associated with a planet. Would an enemy fleet even see ships on a moon?

Why can't the League just offer to join the GA? Whether it actually wants to or not. If they make the offer, then just like with Haven - at the hands of Pierre and Saint-Just - Elizabeth will be faced with honoring the request (of at least a cease-fire and a truce -- 'til they can get back on balance) or look like the aggressors to all of humanity.

Would the political tactics and strategies of Rob Pierre and Saint-Just be common knowledge to the League? It's interesting that the League bureaucrat wouldn't be interested in the political strategies of Haven during its war against Manticore.

cthia wrote:Recently we discussed whether Dreadnoughts can enter atmosphere and land on a planet.

Have we discussed the tactical possibilities of basing an entire fleet on a moon? There's no atmosphere to worry about or any of the many negatives associated with a planet. Would an enemy fleet even see ships on a moon?

You would have to deal with the moon's gravitational pull, which could be quite significant in comparison to the negligible gravitation pull of a space station. This would make docking much more 'interesting', in the Chinese curse meaning.

And Honorverse starships (as opposed to pinnaces and cargo shuttles) are not designed to actually land. The ships would have to be redesigned, with the capability to land using up mass and volume that could be better used in its primary function.

cthia wrote:Why can't the League just offer to join the GA? Whether it actually wants to or not. If they make the offer, then just like with Haven - at the hands of Pierre and Saint-Just - Elizabeth will be faced with honoring the request (of at least a cease-fire and a truce -- 'til they can get back on balance) or look like the aggressors to all of humanity.

Would the political tactics and strategies of Rob Pierre and Saint-Just be common knowledge to the League? It's interesting that the League bureaucrat wouldn't be interested in the political strategies of Haven during its war against Manticore.

Probably because the Permanent Undersecretaries who actually run the League can't imagine the idea. Even if they could, it would be a significant blow to the League's view of itself (other polities are supposed to join the League, not the other way around), which would be a severe political* blow to the PUs who set policy. This could lead to them being replaced by (horrors) someone else.

* Political as used here means in the internecine office politics or warfare of the bureaucracies.

cthia wrote:Why can't the League just offer to join the GA? Whether it actually wants to or not. If they make the offer, then just like with Haven - at the hands of Pierre and Saint-Just - Elizabeth will be faced with honoring the request (of at least a cease-fire and a truce -- 'til they can get back on balance) or look like the aggressors to all of humanity.

The GA is a military alliance, not a government. Consider an offer by the USSR to join NATO is 1985, or the NAZIs to join the Allies in 1943.

Once everyone got done laughing they would have refused it.

Now, if they offered to do something reasonable they might be able to accomplish something, but so far the actual attacks have been by the SL. The RMN has made aggressive responses, but has not actually initiated an attack on a core SL system.

The last post brought up something that we tend to overlook. There is a huge distinction between those people and systems that Mancticore is responsible for and those who they might choose to do something nice for.

If you want to get protected by the RMN the solution is to join the SEM. Which requires you to apply and get accepted - which requires you agree to subordinate your government to the Empire, pay taxes to the SEM, accept the basing of Imperial military units and Imperial law enforcement, accept an Imperial Governor and modify your government as needed to satisfy the SEM.

If haven't joined the SEM the SEM has no obligation to do anything for you no matter how much awful stuff happens. If they chose to show up and do something to help (or harm - if they see that as needed) they have no obligation to stick around and "make things right". There are no pottery barn rules that Manticore has agreed to.