Treecat animal husbandry

lots of good point jeff. one amendment i would say though is to the lack of their native plants etc.for the Grayson colony. it is explicitly stated in flag in exile that the grayson's had imported lots of sphinxian flowers etc to help their steadholder and nimitiz feel at home.

JeffEngel wrote:Given that their first colonies have been on Grayson and Gryphon, I think this one weighs heavily on them, much more than having an environment that lets them live like they do at home. Getting to any other world is going to take two-leg help. If living there does too, well, the treecat colonists may figure that's a price they're practically committed to paying anyway, so the important thing is going where they'll have two-leg friends willing to have them and to accept treecat labor and skills for the products of two-leg skills.

Since only the Gryphon Colony is in or near forests of any kind, where the Grayson and Jason Bay colonies basically share Honor's residences, I'd say that 'forests' aren't particularly high on the list of requirements.

I don't know how adapting to a non-arboreal lifestyle is going to work out in the long run, but I suspect that custom built 'cat houses/communities can fill any need for climbing and elevated nesting that might arise.

I worry about spreading the colonies too far away from the immediate protective umbrella of informed Manticorans and Sphinxians. Remember, everyone doesn't view the cats as anything other than pets. To, possibly, even many Manticorans, their intelligence is still a question and not a statement.

I think it is irresponsible to remove the cats too far away from that buffer zone between informed individuals and those without the God-given brains of a Legislaturalist. How long before pirate booty will turn up treecat pelts? It isn't like the cats can send out a Case Cthulhu.

The farther they are sent away from the original nest the greater the possibility of some form of exploitation, abuse, capture, torture... death.

Tester forbid there be a clan set up somewhere, say like Montana, which turns out to have Mesans hiding in the closet.

And to a Mesan on Montana, a treecat on open land is better than two in the bush.

cthia wrote:I worry about spreading the colonies too far away from the immediate protective umbrella of informed Manticorans and Sphinxians. Remember, everyone doesn't view the cats as anything other than pets. To, possibly, even many Manticorans, their intelligence is still a question and not a statement.

The Manticoran experience of treecats isn't the same as their reputation and image off Manticore. On Manticore, they've been in view as cute and cuddly for centuries - during which they've been playing simple as protective camouflage. On Manticore, they have that reputation to correct still.

On Grayson, the introduction was Nimitz recognizing then tearing through assassins in defense of the Protector and family. Cute and cuddly came later, and only added to that first impression. They've never struck Graysons as mere pets.

Elsewhere, there's been awareness of them, dimly, as a sentient alien race native to one of Manticore's planets, unusually small for it, and that's about it. Now that they're signing, if an interpreter is about, they'll be able to make impressions verbally. They've got reputation still to correct on Manticore, but when the 'cats are talking, someone's got to be a drooling idiot to persist in dismissing them as clever animals.

I think it is irresponsible to remove the cats too far away from that buffer zone between informed individuals and those without the God-given brains of a Legislaturalist. How long before pirate booty will turn up treecat pelts? It isn't like the cats can send out a Case Cthulhu.

It's the treecats' responsibility. No one is shooing them out there. And captive 'cats can still be expected to kill themselves, if it comes to that, and likely cause some slashy bleeding trouble for people who want to make off with them.

The farther they are sent away from the original nest the greater the possibility of some form of exploitation, abuse, capture, torture... death.

Well yes. Same goes for all of us. It's the risk we assume leaving home. I don't think you're going to call Manticore irresponsible for letting anyone join the RMN, and risk exploitation, abuse, capture, torture, and death. (The recruiters, presumably, aren't putting it that way, but no one should be allowed in who can't comprehend those possibilities soberly and accept them.)

To live is to risk. The treecats aren't children, and it's certainly not humans' place to treat them as if they were.

Tester forbid there be a clan set up somewhere, say like Montana, which turns out to have Mesans hiding in the closet.

And to a Mesan on Montana, a treecat on open land is better than two in the bush.

Granted, although Montana strikes me as not especially welcoming for Mesan influence.

Treecat colonization is to spread them out and provide coverage for the species against disaster. Beyond that, there's the joy of exploration and the experience of a greater diversity of lifestyles. Of course it also means leaving one protective envelope - that's the point, so that failure of that one envelope doesn't mean extinction. It means risks in more places. It does look as though going places where the People's enemies will be unwelcome and have a hard time getting them is a strong factor in their decision-making, along with two-legs who get them. Sheer lack of exposure to treecats probably means Montana and other Talbott systems won't be getting colonized in the next year or three, though they may well look good in coming decades.

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:I worry about spreading the colonies too far away from the immediate protective umbrella of informed Manticorans and Sphinxians. Remember, everyone doesn't view the cats as anything other than pets. To, possibly, even many Manticorans, their intelligence is still a question and not a statement.

The Manticoran experience of treecats isn't the same as their reputation and image off Manticore. On Manticore, they've been in view as cute and cuddly for centuries - during which they've been playing simple as protective camouflage. On Manticore, they have that reputation to correct still.

On Grayson, the introduction was Nimitz recognizing then tearing through assassins in defense of the Protector and family. Cute and cuddly came later, and only added to that first impression. They've never struck Graysons as mere pets.

Elsewhere, there's been awareness of them, dimly, as a sentient alien race native to one of Manticore's planets, unusually small for it, and that's about it. Now that they're signing, if an interpreter is about, they'll be able to make impressions verbally. They've got reputation still to correct on Manticore, but when the 'cats are talking, someone's got to be a drooling idiot to persist in dismissing them as clever animals.

I think it is irresponsible to remove the cats too far away from that buffer zone between informed individuals and those without the God-given brains of a Legislaturalist. How long before pirate booty will turn up treecat pelts? It isn't like the cats can send out a Case Cthulhu.

It's the treecats' responsibility. No one is shooing them out there. And captive 'cats can still be expected to kill themselves, if it comes to that, and likely cause some slashy bleeding trouble for people who want to make off with them.

The farther they are sent away from the original nest the greater the possibility of some form of exploitation, abuse, capture, torture... death.

Well yes. Same goes for all of us. It's the risk we assume leaving home. I don't think you're going to call Manticore irresponsible for letting anyone join the RMN, and risk exploitation, abuse, capture, torture, and death. (The recruiters, presumably, aren't putting it that way, but no one should be allowed in who can't comprehend those possibilities soberly and accept them.)

To live is to risk. The treecats aren't children, and it's certainly not humans' place to treat them as if they were.

Tester forbid there be a clan set up somewhere, say like Montana, which turns out to have Mesans hiding in the closet.

And to a Mesan on Montana, a treecat on open land is better than two in the bush.

Granted, although Montana strikes me as not especially welcoming for Mesan influence.

Treecat colonization is to spread them out and provide coverage for the species against disaster. Beyond that, there's the joy of exploration and the experience of a greater diversity of lifestyles. Of course it also means leaving one protective envelope - that's the point, so that failure of that one envelope doesn't mean extinction. It means risks in more places. It does look as though going places where the People's enemies will be unwelcome and have a hard time getting them is a strong factor in their decision-making, along with two-legs who get them. Sheer lack of exposure to treecats probably means Montana and other Talbott systems won't be getting colonized in the next year or three, though they may well look good in coming decades.

The on-going interrogation of SLN crews and the upcoming invasion of Mesa may do more for the dissemination of knowledge of Treecats than anything else. In ToF there was mention of how scared the PRN in Exile was after being interrogated by Suburo X and Lara’s Hologram (“you don’t want to make her ghost angry”) – Think about the terror in a SLN officer as the cat who has been sitting across from him, staring deeply into the officer’s eyes (while massaging his palms so his claws keep expanding and retracting and shaking his tail impatiently), turns to the Interrogator sitting next to him and start gesturing wildly). The Interrogator, then says “Gearheart here says you have been lying to me. He also has asked me to leave the room so he can “interrogate” you in his own way. I’m usually not one for that, [chair screeches along the metal deck as he starts to stand] but since you’ve decided to waste my time, I don’t see that I have a choice…”

After the dust settles, Treecats will probably be in high demand as Negotiation assistants or mediators. Just like governments and businesses bring lawyers, security and strategists to high level agreements, those wealthy enough will probably start hiring Treecats as part of the strategy team. The ability to glean your opponent’s emotional state when certain topics are discussed would be invaluable, especially since most people in such positions have polished poker faces. As always, in Diplomacy - if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:I worry about spreading the colonies too far away from the immediate protective umbrella of informed Manticorans and Sphinxians. Remember, everyone doesn't view the cats as anything other than pets. To, possibly, even many Manticorans, their intelligence is still a question and not a statement.

The Manticoran experience of treecats isn't the same as their reputation and image off Manticore. On Manticore, they've been in view as cute and cuddly for centuries - during which they've been playing simple as protective camouflage. On Manticore, they have that reputation to correct still.

On Grayson, the introduction was Nimitz recognizing then tearing through assassins in defense of the Protector and family. Cute and cuddly came later, and only added to that first impression. They've never struck Graysons as mere pets.

Elsewhere, there's been awareness of them, dimly, as a sentient alien race native to one of Manticore's planets, unusually small for it, and that's about it. Now that they're signing, if an interpreter is about, they'll be able to make impressions verbally. They've got reputation still to correct on Manticore, but when the 'cats are talking, someone's got to be a drooling idiot to persist in dismissing them as clever animals.

I think it is irresponsible to remove the cats too far away from that buffer zone between informed individuals and those without the God-given brains of a Legislaturalist. How long before pirate booty will turn up treecat pelts? It isn't like the cats can send out a Case Cthulhu.

It's the treecats' responsibility. No one is shooing them out there. And captive 'cats can still be expected to kill themselves, if it comes to that, and likely cause some slashy bleeding trouble for people who want to make off with them.

The farther they are sent away from the original nest the greater the possibility of some form of exploitation, abuse, capture, torture... death.

Well yes. Same goes for all of us. It's the risk we assume leaving home. I don't think you're going to call Manticore irresponsible for letting anyone join the RMN, and risk exploitation, abuse, capture, torture, and death. (The recruiters, presumably, aren't putting it that way, but no one should be allowed in who can't comprehend those possibilities soberly and accept them.)

To live is to risk. The treecats aren't children, and it's certainly not humans' place to treat them as if they were.

Tester forbid there be a clan set up somewhere, say like Montana, which turns out to have Mesans hiding in the closet.

And to a Mesan on Montana, a treecat on open land is better than two in the bush.

Granted, although Montana strikes me as not especially welcoming for Mesan influence.

Treecat colonization is to spread them out and provide coverage for the species against disaster. Beyond that, there's the joy of exploration and the experience of a greater diversity of lifestyles. Of course it also means leaving one protective envelope - that's the point, so that failure of that one envelope doesn't mean extinction. It means risks in more places. It does look as though going places where the People's enemies will be unwelcome and have a hard time getting them is a strong factor in their decision-making, along with two-legs who get them. Sheer lack of exposure to treecats probably means Montana and other Talbott systems won't be getting colonized in the next year or three, though they may well look good in coming decades.

It is the 'Cat's responsibility and the 'Cat's risk, yes. But are the 'Cats qualified to make an informed decision?

The only planets they've known are Manticore and Sphinx and just very recently, Grayson. As such, Grayson isn't a good data point for the 'Cats. Grayson is literally a God-send. But the 'Cats are in no historical position to know how inhumane humanity can be. They don't know ruthless hunting to extinction or hunting for fun, especially when considering the "challenge of the hunt" that an intelligent species can provide. They don't know that they could be hunted as trophies, stuffed and mounted on a wall and possibly destined to become the social entertainment in bragging conversations in drunken, smoky Country Clubs and lodges. Even as jewelry made out of their claws. Perhaps for their hides as exotic clothing.

Moreover, as formidable a weapon as the 'Cat's claws are, they are no match for human technology and weapons.

I can see people paying handsomely to collect the 'Cats as pets, research, etc. Heck, more than one reader has asked RFC for one for themselves. (Pokermind has one! How did you get it poker, hmmm? lol).

Overnight the 'Cats can infuse the piracy trade with new life, new profit, new motivation. The MAlign could conceivably order them by the freighter loads - hoping to be able to keep them alive in social groups, to enable research.

You can't expect humans all over the galaxy to have the same respect for the 'Cats. People just have differing morals, scruples and values. I have a friend who has rang me several times a week, often ending up in tears, regarding the current dog atrocity in Japan. (current to Americans)

The 'Cats have no idea how ruthless man can be. They studied Sphinxians for (decades, centuries?) before trusting them. They have no idea what they're getting into. But we do. At least those of us with the brains God gave a Legislaturalist.

We mustn't be naïve. Some people could conceivably even fear them in their paranoid self-absorption.

Here is what I see for treecat colonists. First they will only go to a few systems. Namely Beowulf Haven and Spindle. Let's take a look at the systems.

Beowulf will be the easiest of all because it is the closest to Manticore in terms of travel time plus they have their own sentient lifeforms on planet to smooth things out.

Haven will get several fuzzy bodyguards that will act as sort of scouts for the rest. I wouldn't be surprised that after a few years that some of these cats would like to go home for at least a visit and share memories of the experience with their home clans and if they return bring their families along as a sort of PCS move.

Spindle will need several cats to help with the sorting of revolutionary groups. They will have a advantage of having OSKM personnel to smooth things out with locals and local laws. They would then fallow Haven on treecat colonists.

As for any type of exploitation of treecats I say good luck with that. Remember the quote by Honor "believe me you don't see a treecat in the wild unless he wants you to". Also for the forcible future treecats are going to be right next to their protectee.

cthia wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Treecat colonization is to spread them out and provide coverage for the species against disaster. Beyond that, there's the joy of exploration and the experience of a greater diversity of lifestyles. Of course it also means leaving one protective envelope - that's the point, so that failure of that one envelope doesn't mean extinction. It means risks in more places. It does look as though going places where the People's enemies will be unwelcome and have a hard time getting them is a strong factor in their decision-making, along with two-legs who get them. Sheer lack of exposure to treecats probably means Montana and other Talbott systems won't be getting colonized in the next year or three, though they may well look good in coming decades.

It is the 'Cat's responsibility and the 'Cat's risk, yes. But are the 'Cats qualified to make an informed decision?

The only planets they've known are Manticore and Sphinx and just very recently, Grayson. As such, Grayson isn't a good data point for the 'Cats. Grayson is literally a God-send. But the 'Cats are in no historical position to know how inhumane humanity can be. They don't know ruthless hunting to extinction or hunting for fun, especially when considering the "challenge of the hunt" that an intelligent species can provide. They don't know that they could be hunted as trophies, stuffed and mounted on a wall and possibly destined to become the social entertainment in bragging conversations in drunken, smoky Country Clubs and lodges. Even as jewelry made out of their claws. Perhaps for their hides as exotic clothing.

Moreover, as formidable a weapon as the 'Cat's claws are, they are no match for human technology and weapons.

I can see people paying handsomely to collect the 'Cats as pets, research, etc. Heck, more than one reader has asked RFC for one for themselves. (Pokermind has one! How did you get it poker, hmmm? lol).

Overnight the 'Cats can infuse the piracy trade with new life, new profit, new motivation. The MAlign could conceivably order them by the freighter loads - hoping to be able to keep them alive in social groups, to enable research.

They may have a very hard time finding freighter loads of 'cats. They're not moving in great numbers, they occupy rather little space each, and passenger liners tend to be uneconomical targets for piracy already.

You can't expect humans all over the galaxy to have the same respect for the 'Cats. People just have differing morals, scruples and values. I have a friend who has rang me several times a week, often ending up in tears, regarding the current dog atrocity in Japan. (current to Americans)

The 'Cats have no idea how ruthless man can be. They studied Sphinxians for (decades, centuries?) before trusting them. They have no idea what they're getting into. But we do. At least those of us with the brains God gave a Legislaturalist.

We mustn't be naïve. Some people could conceivably even fear them in their paranoid self-absorption.

They're apparently colonizing places with a strong preference for friendly, understanding, tough-as-nails two-legs present. That's a fair amount of protection. It won't rule out crazed humans, ignorant humans, or ones in the pay of such far away, but then, they've not been proof against that on Sphinx.

Sphinx is not a planet of angels. Treecats have been watching them at their best and worst for centuries, and they've had reports on the top echelon of politics on Manticore. High Ridge isn't one of humanity's shining lights, and Ariel and Monroe have had plenty of feedback to deliver the treecat network on him, Descroix, New Kiev, so they've got a fine idea of how much political power two-legs can get and keep while being all sorts of vicious and stupid.

For several hundred years, they've also accompanied the RMN and seen all the crap humans inflict on one another in Silesia. Piracy, slavery, murder, all familiar things out there. I don't recall if Nimitz ever came in range to taste Warnecke's mind-glow, but certainly the results of his ambitions can be well reported by him and Samantha.

They've been able to follow spoken standard English for a long time, and lately can interrogate people freely in sign. They come at things with a very different mental orientation, and they're not going to be engineers or mathematicians any time soon, but I think we can assume that they've considered their actions carefully and have picked up all the relevant information they can get and grasp. (Heck, tasting mind-glows, they may have insights the two-legs couldn't articulate themselves.)

They've also found that, much as they like Sphinx and the vast majority of two-legs on it, those smart, loyal, dedicated, and well-equipped two-legs cannot prevent individual poachers from coming for them and their kittens or from having space stations fall from the sky on their nesting places.

They simply do not have zero risk options, and it'd be naive to suppose that staying put or colonizing very, very conservatively buys them safety.

It's fairly clear that the Treecats are not great innovators and hadn't thought about agriculture (and probably even less about domestication) until after Humans arrived on Sphinx.

Look at their reaction to the green houses in a beautiful friendship.

Treecat colonies started before the Yawata strike, given Honors' on thoughts on Samantha and Nimitz bring their children back to Grayson (and Samantha said as much herself to the elders of Nimitz clan), combined with the fact that Honor thought the childrens 'mind glow' was different to other 'cats she had meet.

It probably, like any society/species that Arboreal Treecats will gradually change, as they merge more fully into Human society and their horizons abilities broaden.
I doubt will every see a Treecat RMN Captain but I do expect that given enough time Humanity will become more like them, as the latent 'tele-emphatic' ability in Humans is activated.