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[SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: [SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...
Post by River Monster   » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:56 am

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Yeah, that was kind of a "Holy crap!" moment for me too.

Mind you, I expect the first thing out of Merlin's mouth to be something on the order of "Your family is safe, and will continue to be so. You have the word of Emperor Cayleb and Empress Sharleyan on that. No matter what else is said here tonight, you may rest assured of that."

And that's because that's who Merlin, Cayleb, and Sharleyn are. The would make sure Thirsk first and foremost knew that his family was safe, and weren't going to be used as leverage against him. Period, full stop.

As for Thisrk switching sides, or retiring to somewhere in the Empire, I'm less certain of that. Right now, Thirsk is a man in conflict, and while he objects to some of the things that have been done in the course of the jihad (and espically to Clyntahn's actions), he is still loyal to his country, and considers himself a child of Mother Church, even if he currently doesn't approve of their actions.

This is going to be... interesting.
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Re: [SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...
Post by Expert snuggler   » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:21 pm

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His sense of honor seems like it would require him to stay in harness.

A more subtle man than Clyntahn might pressure the government to put Thirsk out to pasture. Such a man would be realistic enough to want to keep him in position.

If Clyntahn somehow finds out that Thirsk's children are alive and in Charis, guess who he will blame, and he won't be subtle.

Diplomacy may be the best weapon here. A separate peace with Dohlar is imaginable. "Consider whether you're safer allied with Clyntahn, who will turn on you as soon as he can and can't protect you from our fleet, or allied with us, the people who keep winning."
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Re: [SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...
Post by Andraek   » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:33 pm

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He may very well switch sides His King let his family be taken to zion where he knew theyed be help prisoner and then tortured and killed by clythan and he didn't do anything to protect thirsks family. It was only the charisians who saved them so yes he may very well turn his coat and join Charis. He also know Dholar is going to become part of charis whether it wants to or not one day soon since Rahnyld gave the chisians to clyhtan so he may as well follow true honor and help stop clynthan
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Re: [SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:50 pm

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Welcome! I believe the custom here is to invite you to have a simulated beverage of your choice.

Where do you see, in Thirsk, the flexibility to decide that an oath is more honored in the breach than in the observance?
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Re: [SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...
Post by n7axw   » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:28 pm

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Expert snuggler wrote:Welcome! I believe the custom here is to invite you to have a simulated beverage of your choice.

Where do you see, in Thirsk, the flexibility to decide that an oath is more honored in the breach than in the observance?


Thirsk is an honorable man, but how honor is played out is not neccessarily a simple thing. For example, he has an oath to his king, but his king also has obligations. Is Thirsk honor bound to serve his king if the king fails to keep his obligations or if Thirsk can see that the policies his king is implementing are leading Dohlar into disaster?

Thirsk is honor bound to serve God and his church. But how is honor served when the actions of the church are such that they can no longer be perceived as either serving or representing God? Does not serving God take precedence over serving the church?

Personally, I don't expect Thirsk to actively switch sides. But the questions raised above are among the issues that he has to work through. I would be quite surprised if they don't come up in his conversation with Merlin. It will be intriguing to see how he works out what honor is really all about...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: [SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...
Post by Expert snuggler   » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:33 am

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If Merlin can show up mysteriously so can Archbishop Maikel. Everyone who comes near him feels like he's on the side of good. He may refuse to engage in politics, but imagine a churchman that persuasive telling Thirsk that the Church of Clyntahn no longer has a claim on Thirsk's loyalty.
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Re: [SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...
Post by TBird50   » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:09 pm

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You would think that by saving Thirsk's family, that it would make things easier for him. But in a lot of ways it makes things even more conflicted. How can he battle Charis, when Charis has his family (even given that Charis has put no qualifications on their safety). How can his heart truly be in those types of battles. And yet, his honor to God and the Church would make it extremely difficult for him to turn his coat. If it was anyone but Thirsk, I'd say he would join his family and retire to safety. But Thirsk is (or has been) the only commander to seriously damage Charis' forces, so I don't see him being written out of the story. I believe that somehow, he will become aligned with Charis and fight against Clyntahn. I'm just not certain how that will be determined.

He is such an honorable man, that I don't see how he could possibly keep fighting against the country that is keeping his family safe.
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Re: [SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:52 pm

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TBird50 wrote:You would think that by saving Thirsk's family, that it would make things easier for him. But in a lot of ways it makes things even more conflicted. How can he battle Charis, when Charis has his family (even given that Charis has put no qualifications on their safety). How can his heart truly be in those types of battles. And yet, his honor to God and the Church would make it extremely difficult for him to turn his coat. If it was anyone but Thirsk, I'd say he would join his family and retire to safety. But Thirsk is (or has been) the only commander to seriously damage Charis' forces, so I don't see him being written out of the story. I believe that somehow, he will become aligned with Charis and fight against Clyntahn. I'm just not certain how that will be determined.

He is such an honorable man, that I don't see how he could possibly keep fighting against the country that is keeping his family safe.

He's swallowed a whole lot of things that haven't gone down easily in the last seven years - that much more may be tolerable.

But more likely, he's going to resolve it the way he's finally free to: get Dohlar out from under the thumb of the monster in Zion. That's a lot easier said than done, but it's an idea that the leaders of the army and the navy's intendent would be behind, something the monarch may be sold on ("Rahnny, how would you like to be able to sit in on your actual throne now and then with a clear conscience? Pigeon racing for fun instead of escapism?"), and something enough royal ministers can accept to crowd the others out of the way.
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Re: [SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...
Post by Expert snuggler   » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:19 pm

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The power vacuum left if the Inquisitors were gone could be filled by a newly created Church of Dohlar. Bring true believes in the Writ on board by saying it's a temporary measure until God can re-assert control over Zion.
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Re: [SPOILER] Just finished HFQ ...
Post by Charybdis   » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:22 pm

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Please to consider these points taken from TextEv.

First: Cayleb made an excellent point to Thirsk (OAR) that the "Knights of the Temple Lands" aka Gang of Four (Go4) had formed an alliance against Charis to be used without mercy against every man, woman and child in Charis. Thirsk's family is now resident and protected by Charis (et al).

Second: Clyntahn's Inquisitors performed mass murder of the innocents in their 'raid' at Ferayd (BSRA) and the Inquisition did their level best to cover it up. The Inquisitors apparently made no effort to save even young children. Thirsk's family includes very young grandchildren.

Third: Clyntahn and the Inquisition chose to force Thirsk and Dohlar to surrender Gwylyam Manthyr and his fellow POWs (AMF) to the Inquisition for the "Punishment of Schueler", a wholly illegitimate and unprecedented barbarity. Since then the Inquisition has extended this behavior to many of its prisoners. Thirsk's family was forcibly en-route to Zion and the 'protection' of the Inquisition!

Fourth: Clyntahn and his Inquisition has found no problem in torturing mere suspects and associates while keeping them imprisoned in death camps (LaMA & HFQ). Clyntahn has chosen his own interpretation of Holy Writ to allow for killing a thousand innocents in order to kill a single Shan-Wei supporter! Thirsk's family was about to be 'guests' of the Inquisition but where would they have ended up?

Fifth & Finally: Charis, as a policy, from top to bottom, has pledged and demonstrated a practice of tolerance (Temple Loyalists permitted to freely worship) and non-retaliation, POWs treated well even though worked hard. The exception of the Inquisition still is more merciful than they offer, fast death versus torture! Thirsk has met Cayleb and seen his policies where even formerly deadly enemies, Emerald, Tarot & Corisande, have become allies. Demonstrated strength and mercy are powerful tools of persuasion!

So how do YOU think Thirsk will receive Merlin?
-----

What say you, my peers?
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