Ramifications from HFQ- Speculations-Spoilers!

AAMOF, Rayno is a Delferahkan, and [IIRC] cousin to the King. Member of the same family, at any rate.

His see is in Harchong, but that doesn't make him Harchongese. He probably holds it primarily because it needs no attention from him, unlike some of the livelier corners of the Church.

WeberFan wrote:

PeterZ wrote:----SNIP (emphasis mine)----
All these factors suggest the story will go in one of two directions. Either Clyntahn takes control of the jihad directly and offs Magwair or Magrwair and Duchairn succeed in offing Clyntahn. In another post I suggested Rayno was part of Nynian's action group. If I am right, Duchairn might well succeed in his efforts to kill Clyntahn. Otherwise, not likely at all.

I don't think Rayno is anything other than a complete, absolute follower of Clyntahn.

In textev that comes not from the book but from David's back-channel notes (on the Jiltanith site IIRC) Rayno is described as the person who fixed the election for Grand Inquisitor so that Clyntahn would win. He is (IMHO) beholden to Clyntahn for his own power, and - remember - he's Harchongian, with all the repressiveness that entails.

Doomwhale wrote:I think Rayno is playing Beria to Clyntahn's Stalin. He is getting worried about the state of the Grand Inquisitor's mind, and eventually that fury is going to fall on himself.

MY bet is that self preservation is going to embolden the Archbishop of Chiang Wu to act.

. Doo whale this my thought as well. I think in the end Rayno will be out for himself and evn betray Clyntahn.
Which I would find very ironic. I have always thought Rayno even supporting. Clyntahn is a farce.

Doomwhale wrote:I think Rayno is playing Beria to Clyntahn's Stalin. He is getting worried about the state of the Grand Inquisitor's mind, and eventually that fury is going to fall on himself.

MY bet is that self preservation is going to embolden the Archbishop of Chiang Wu to act.

Especially since he had to have taken Clyntahn's comments about the Fist of Kau-Yung investigation as a threat to himself.

Here are the threads in the wind that I picked up on after finishing the book:

1) It's clear that the rescue plan for Thirsk's family included Hektor's ship "happening" across an explosion at sea and "happening" to find a fishing boat with two Seijin and one mesmerized family. They in all likelihood are headed back to Claw Island and from there to somewhere in the Charisian Empire. The big question is how will their rescue be treated? Will they be given false identities and scattered in different places in the Empire as more reformist refugees from the mainland (who happen to have Dohlaran accents)? Will Charis make this fact known and likely damn Thirsk one way or another?

2) Merlin meeting with Thirsk directly in the book's coda indicates at the very least that he is going to given a choice. Just being there when in fact Merlin should be at Cayleb's side in Siddar means Thirsk is going to be told the truth. Obviously his response will dictate what will be done. If he can't handle the truth then obviously he'll disappear that very night or perhaps be found "dead" the next morning from some medical overdose - With his body being spirited away the way the Mallards were. But if he can accept the truth, then it opens up several interesting options. Does he become Charis' agent in Dohlar? Does he disappear and reunite with his family? Is he given a com and allowed to speak with the Inner Circle regularly? This latter option is rather touchy since it would pit him at some point against Hektor or Yairly who are also members of the Inner Circle. One thing though I believe we can dismiss - Charis won't ask him to become their agent (since they know he'll refuse to be "used" like that).

3) Siddarmark's rebuilt army made an appearance in HFQ yet it's still not taking the lead in the war. But it's been over a year since the Sword of Schueler and the subsequent attack by the Church. Siddarmark, despite the huge losses in the population (estimated in the millions - exclusive of those murdered in the concentration camps), still has a very large population and can likely raise at least one million troops to match the Mighty Host along with the Charisian forces. So we're likely to see more Siddarmarkian action in the next book.

4) This is a big one - Rayno telling Clyntahn his conclusion that the Fist of God is receiving demonic assistance. While they haven't been shy about making this accusation in public (despite the sticky issue of where the "divine intervention" is against such "demons"), it's clear they haven't really bought into this idea until this point. Now though, Rayno is starting to make real assessments based on the conclusion of "demonic assistance" (such as checking the records on whether "demons" could enter into churches and realizing that they aren't coming near the Temple itself. And since we know from RFC that the Grand Library of the Temple has a ton of records going all the way back to the "Creation", it's possible Rayno will do a little more research there to figure out when and where and what divine intervention occurred during the War Against the Fallen. It's also possible he will experience a growing crisis of faith as a result of what he learns in the Grand Library.

5) Clyntahn's increasing paranoia and refusal to accept reality. Rayno is aware of this and does manage to get him to see reason. Yet it's clear that even Rayno feels threatened by Clyntahn. The question is will Clyntahn really go all the way and purge Rayno along with Maigwair and Duchairn. And what happens when Duchairn officially notifies Clyntahn that the Church is officially bankrupt and cannot pay for the logistical demands of the Mighty Host, much less continued research and development.

6) The expansion of the Church's industrial capabilities. What will this mean down the road? What does it mean in relation to the recent explosion at the Delthak Works?

7) The moral effect of liberating at least some of the concentration camps. How will loyal Siddarmark respond to the atrocities described by the survivors?

evilauthor wrote:
Yep. And I think Dohlar is going to wind up as Charis' primary post war competition.

And let's face it, competition of this kind is good for Charis. We've already seen what happened to the Church (and many real life examples) when it was an absolute power with no competition whatsoever.

Absolutely. Also, it is one of the ironies of life that many, if not most, major scientific and technological developments have their origins in warfare.

thanatos wrote:Here are the threads in the wind that I picked up on after finishing the book:

[snip]

4) This is a big one - Rayno telling Clyntahn his conclusion that the Fist of God is receiving demonic assistance. While they haven't been shy about making this accusation in public (despite the sticky issue of where the "divine intervention" is against such "demons"), it's clear they haven't really bought into this idea until this point. Now though, Rayno is starting to make real assessments based on the conclusion of "demonic assistance" (such as checking the records on whether "demons" could enter into churches and realizing that they aren't coming near the Temple itself. And since we know from RFC that the Grand Library of the Temple has a ton of records going all the way back to the "Creation", it's possible Rayno will do a little more research there to figure out when and where and what divine intervention occurred during the War Against the Fallen. It's also possible he will experience a growing crisis of faith as a result of what he learns in the Grand Library.

[snip]

This is a very interesting observation! And it would open the way for DW to short-cut the story towards a high-tech conclusion.

I'd also enjoy it if the the series continued to move at its current pace. But it is getting rather long.
I do hope to get to the Gbaba stage of the project at some point - and not just in a short trailer sentence like 'and then they returned to the stars and punched the Gbabas' noses. The End.'

I mean: You don't hang a Gbaba on the wall for 8 volumes with 4500 + pages if you don't intend to use it eventually, right?

PeterZ wrote:Killing Rayno would have made Clyntahn's leadership team LESS capable, why spare him? My gut tells me he is in some way aiding either the SSK or Helm Cleaver. Why is he helping is still a mystery.

Alternatively, and Nynian is certainly devious enough to think of this, they could have spared Rayno to get Clyntahn to ask himself this question. How would Clyntahn react?

If Clyntahn killed Rayno this would be far more disruptive for the Temple than the resistance killing him. Even leaving Rayno in place, with Clyntahn distrusting him, with the potential for key information being withheld or delayed might be more disruptive than Rayno being killed and a competent replacement found. Best of all perhaps, since Clytahn's reaction to Mab's letter persuaded Rayno that Clyntahn could kill him, would be Rayno's fleeing before he's put to the 'question'.

Any of these outcomes would cause more problems inside the Temple's organisation than the resistance killing Rayno.

Indeed so. Still, we have text that Clyntahn recognizes Rayno as one of the exceedingly rare members of the inquisition who will tell him things he does not want to hear. Replacing him will not be easy and Clyntahn recognizes this. Regardless of what The Fist of God writes, the value if the working relationship that has developed between Rayno and Clyntahn is something Clyntahn has come to rely on. Changing chief subordinates in these sorts of turbulent times is not something Clyntahn will do lightly. Certainly not based on a statement from people trying to destroy you.

wyrm wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Killing Rayno would have made Clyntahn's leadership team LESS capable, why spare him? My gut tells me he is in some way aiding either the SSK or Helm Cleaver. Why is he helping is still a mystery.

Alternatively, and Nynian is certainly devious enough to think of this, they could have spared Rayno to get Clyntahn to ask himself this question. How would Clyntahn react?

If Clyntahn killed Rayno this would be far more disruptive for the Temple than the resistance killing him. Even leaving Rayno in place, with Clyntahn distrusting him, with the potential for key information being withheld or delayed might be more disruptive than Rayno being killed and a competent replacement found. Best of all perhaps, since Clytahn's reaction to Mab's letter persuaded Rayno that Clyntahn could kill him, would be Rayno's fleeing before he's put to the 'question'.

Any of these outcomes would cause more problems inside the Temple's organisation than the resistance killing Rayno.

hanuman wrote:Absolutely. Also, it is one of the ironies of life that many, if not most, major scientific and technological developments have their origins in warfare.

Not just warfare. Trade, commerce, and business also benefit from competition to keep the participants honest. Although for that, Charis has been quietly encouraging Siddarmark to develop its own native industry.

thanatos wrote:Here are the threads in the wind that I picked up on after finishing the book:

1) It's clear that the rescue plan for Thirsk's family included Hektor's ship "happening" across an explosion at sea and "happening" to find a fishing boat with two Seijin and one mesmerized family. They in all likelihood are headed back to Claw Island and from there to somewhere in the Charisian Empire. The big question is how will their rescue be treated? Will they be given false identities and scattered in different places in the Empire as more reformist refugees from the mainland (who happen to have Dohlaran accents)? Will Charis make this fact known and likely damn Thirsk one way or another?

2) Merlin meeting with Thirsk directly in the book's coda indicates at the very least that he is going to given a choice. Just being there when in fact Merlin should be at Cayleb's side in Siddar means Thirsk is going to be told the truth. Obviously his response will dictate what will be done. If he can't handle the truth then obviously he'll disappear that very night or perhaps be found "dead" the next morning from some medical overdose - With his body being spirited away the way the Mallards were. But if he can accept the truth, then it opens up several interesting options. Does he become Charis' agent in Dohlar? Does he disappear and reunite with his family? Is he given a com and allowed to speak with the Inner Circle regularly? This latter option is rather touchy since it would pit him at some point against Hektor or Yairly who are also members of the Inner Circle. One thing though I believe we can dismiss - Charis won't ask him to become their agent (since they know he'll refuse to be "used" like that).

3) Siddarmark's rebuilt army made an appearance in HFQ yet it's still not taking the lead in the war. But it's been over a year since the Sword of Schueler and the subsequent attack by the Church. Siddarmark, despite the huge losses in the population (estimated in the millions - exclusive of those murdered in the concentration camps), still has a very large population and can likely raise at least one million troops to match the Mighty Host along with the Charisian forces. So we're likely to see more Siddarmarkian action in the next book.

4) This is a big one - Rayno telling Clyntahn his conclusion that the Fist of God is receiving demonic assistance. While they haven't been shy about making this accusation in public (despite the sticky issue of where the "divine intervention" is against such "demons"), it's clear they haven't really bought into this idea until this point. Now though, Rayno is starting to make real assessments based on the conclusion of "demonic assistance" (such as checking the records on whether "demons" could enter into churches and realizing that they aren't coming near the Temple itself. And since we know from RFC that the Grand Library of the Temple has a ton of records going all the way back to the "Creation", it's possible Rayno will do a little more research there to figure out when and where and what divine intervention occurred during the War Against the Fallen. It's also possible he will experience a growing crisis of faith as a result of what he learns in the Grand Library.

5) Clyntahn's increasing paranoia and refusal to accept reality. Rayno is aware of this and does manage to get him to see reason. Yet it's clear that even Rayno feels threatened by Clyntahn. The question is will Clyntahn really go all the way and purge Rayno along with Maigwair and Duchairn. And what happens when Duchairn officially notifies Clyntahn that the Church is officially bankrupt and cannot pay for the logistical demands of the Mighty Host, much less continued research and development.

6) The expansion of the Church's industrial capabilities. What will this mean down the road? What does it mean in relation to the recent explosion at the Delthak Works?

7) The moral effect of liberating at least some of the concentration camps. How will loyal Siddarmark respond to the atrocities described by the survivors?

I would disagree that Thirsk's choice means being exposed to the truth. His faith is such that he can't hack it and Merlin knows it.

The choice would be getting him out of Dohlar to join his family or to remain in Dohlar with encouragement from Merlin to do the right thing.

With his family no longer present to serve as leverage over him, I don't think he can survive in Dohlar.

Don