Special Forces

You are assuming facts not in evidence in my reply.

First - I never extended the training regiment to move into an actual active military formation.

According to your argument, Military Boarding Schools, the Young Marines, JROTC, The Naval Sea Cadet Corps, The Civil Air Patrol and Devil Pups are all bad as well.

Giving structure to an orphans life by immersing them into an organization they can believe in will help to remove some of the more extreme psychological effects caused by being abused in such a way. A lot of victims of these types of incidents feel powerless and an organized group structure can give them a sense of belonging and accomplishment.

I do not see how any of these things are morally "beyond the pale", especially given there is absolutely no way they can get the clinical attention they deserve.

Will most of them join the military? Quite possibly, however the need for the military will quickly fade as an unsettled truce evolves.

There is a huge difference between child soldiers and military youth auxiliaries.

shaeun wrote:You are assuming facts not in evidence in my reply.

First - I never extended the training regiment to move into an actual active military formation.

According to your argument, Military Boarding Schools, the Young Marines, JROTC, The Naval Sea Cadet Corps, The Civil Air Patrol and Devil Pups are all bad as well.

Giving structure to an orphans life by immersing them into an organization they can believe in will help to remove some of the more extreme psychological effects caused by being abused in such a way. A lot of victims of these types of incidents feel powerless and an organized group structure can give them a sense of belonging and accomplishment.

I do not see how any of these things are morally "beyond the pale", especially given there is absolutely no way they can get the clinical attention they deserve.

Will most of them join the military? Quite possibly, however the need for the military will quickly fade as an unsettled truce evolves.

There is a huge difference between child soldiers and military youth auxiliaries.

You forgot institutions like the Boy Scouts and Sea Scouts.

JeffEngel wrote:Not familiar with that one. I'm guessing the likely source for a lot of it is the Spartans of Halo. But yeah, it's dystopic as all get-out. If it appeared in a Weber work, it'd be to underline just how wicked the villains or desperate the (nominal?) heroes are. Clyntahn may be that evil, but there are lengths to which even he cannot (at least yet) push the CoGA. The Allies certainly aren't that desperate, much less evil.

Commander Beach shows up in the fourth volume of the Empire of Man series with Prince Roger... in "We Few." Putting her in Duhak series was my bad...

Don

shaeun wrote:You are assuming facts not in evidence in my reply.

First - I never extended the training regiment to move into an actual active military formation.

According to your argument, Military Boarding Schools, the Young Marines, JROTC, The Naval Sea Cadet Corps, The Civil Air Patrol and Devil Pups are all bad as well.

Giving structure to an orphans life by immersing them into an organization they can believe in will help to remove some of the more extreme psychological effects caused by being abused in such a way. A lot of victims of these types of incidents feel powerless and an organized group structure can give them a sense of belonging and accomplishment.

I do not see how any of these things are morally "beyond the pale", especially given there is absolutely no way they can get the clinical attention they deserve.

Will most of them join the military? Quite possibly, however the need for the military will quickly fade as an unsettled truce evolves.

There is a huge difference between child soldiers and military youth auxiliaries.

I will only say that there are two things that I'm getting out of this that I'm reacting to.

First, it was presented as a way of recruiting special forces. The kids were to be put on an island and, at least as I understand it, trained for violence and meyhem in a cause that they themselves did not choose. Indeed the choice was made for them long before they could responsibly choose for themselves. One of the results of this focus would be deprivation of exposure to the wider world and the culture in which they must learn to live and react if they are not committed military. Also they are not exposed to opportunity to seek out a vocation that they could choose and own.

Secondly, what I am hearing here is the notion that somehow the kids are tools to be enlisted and used for adult purposes and expediency. Using people is a reprehensible idea all around. But with children it is even worse because they are vulnerable and inexperienced compared to the adults around them. Instead, what we who play a role in the lives of children, people such as parents, teachers, pastors or in some cases custodians, are called to is to regard that role as a special trust in which the debt is to the children themselves as we protect them, teach them, encourage them and seek to move them ever closer toward that moment when they can take flight from the nest, free to make their own way.

Instead of choosing for the kids, one seeks to postpone the making of irrevocable choices until the kids are as close as possible to being mature enough to responsibly choose for themselves. Indeed, one also tries to prevent the kids from making such choices prematurely. It is best, for example, if kids in their early teens are not trying to raise children.

There is nothing easy about any of this. But finally as a Christian, I believe that kids belong not to the adults around them, but to God. Or, if one doesn't want to take a Christian perspective, regard the kids as belonging to their own selves. The two ideas are really very much the same.

Then act accordingly.

Don

n7axw wrote:... One of the results of this focus would be deprivation of exposure to the wider world and the culture in which they must learn to live and react if they are not committed military. ...

You've made this point several times, and the implication here bothers me a lot.

Are you saying that "socialization" is more important than providing the most accurate and factual education possible?

In order to "live and react" to current Safeholdian culture, a person would have to eschew any sort of NEAT installation and comprehensive advanced knowledge. Waiting until a person is old enough to make a choice to enter the "inner circle" of a free will choice means never getting a NEAT and learning the "Truth" later in life after opinions and attitudes are firmly settled.

Merlin has to start educating a NEAT equipped cadre to advance Safehold tech as fast as possible after the big reveal. To do that, he's going to have to install NEAT interfaces in children -- infants even. "Adopting" war orphans and sending them to "military school" where NEAT interfaces can be installed and/or older children can be taught as much science, technology and math as they can learn, is as good a way to start the re-education of Safehold as any. Like all orphanages and boarding schools, there is an inevitable element of "brainwashing" that is going to happen.

One part of that "brainwashing" is going to inevitably be religious teachings of the Church of Charis and the history and culture of Safehold from an enlightened POV.

Even if the whole idea is predicated and implemented on a need for "special forces" a random sample of war orphans is going to have a high percentage of "wash-outs" who are going to have to find some other way of making a living -- NEAT implants and/or access to the full Terran Federation database give those "washouts" a much wider range of choices than they would have in "mainstream" or CoGA orphanages.

The bottom line is what better option do you have for providing the best education and widest range of choices for war orphans can you offer?

shaeun wrote:You are assuming facts not in evidence in my reply.

First - I never extended the training regiment to move into an actual active military formation.

According to your argument, Military Boarding Schools, the Young Marines, JROTC, The Naval Sea Cadet Corps, The Civil Air Patrol and Devil Pups are all bad as well.

Giving structure to an orphans life by immersing them into an organization they can believe in will help to remove some of the more extreme psychological effects caused by being abused in such a way. A lot of victims of these types of incidents feel powerless and an organized group structure can give them a sense of belonging and accomplishment.

I do not see how any of these things are morally "beyond the pale", especially given there is absolutely no way they can get the clinical attention they deserve.

Will most of them join the military? Quite possibly, however the need for the military will quickly fade as an unsettled truce evolves.

There is a huge difference between child soldiers and military youth auxiliaries.

What Don said.

Furthermore, I don't see why you suppose that they can't possibly get the clinical attention they deserve. The Book of Bedard offers Safehold quite a good background in mental health care, so it's not like they don't know what they are doing. Dealing with all those refugees is going to be a massive public health crisis in an area with its infrastructure in ribbons, granted. But among other people, they'll have all that the Allies and Safehold can get them. Off on an island, drawn away from just about any Bedardist, any aunts, uncles, cousins, neighbors, anyone but drill sergeants pretty much, it's ridiculous to suppose they'd be getting comparable care, much less better.

If the thing they're supposed to be getting of value to them is "an organized group structure" for "a sense of belonging and accomplishment", there are options that won't include junior military prep groups and there are certainly ones that won't demand isolation from their civilization.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:... One of the results of this focus would be deprivation of exposure to the wider world and the culture in which they must learn to live and react if they are not committed military. ...

You've made this point several times, and the implication here bothers me a lot.

Are you saying that "socialization" is more important than providing the most accurate and factual education possible?

In order to "live and react" to current Safeholdian culture, a person would have to eschew any sort of NEAT installation and comprehensive advanced knowledge. Waiting until a person is old enough to make a choice to enter the "inner circle" of a free will choice means never getting a NEAT and learning the "Truth" later in life after opinions and attitudes are firmly settled.

Merlin has to start educating a NEAT equipped cadre to advance Safehold tech as fast as possible after the big reveal. To do that, he's going to have to install NEAT interfaces in children -- infants even. "Adopting" war orphans and sending them to "military school" where NEAT interfaces can be installed and/or older children can be taught as much science, technology and math as they can learn, is as good a way to start the re-education of Safehold as any. Like all orphanages and boarding schools, there is an inevitable element of "brainwashing" that is going to happen.

One part of that "brainwashing" is going to inevitably be religious teachings of the Church of Charis and the history and culture of Safehold from an enlightened POV.

Even if the whole idea is predicated and implemented on a need for "special forces" a random sample of war orphans is going to have a high percentage of "wash-outs" who are going to have to find some other way of making a living -- NEAT implants and/or access to the full Terran Federation database give those "washouts" a much wider range of choices than they would have in "mainstream" or CoGA orphanages.

The bottom line is what better option do you have for providing the best education and widest range of choices for war orphans can you offer?

You're treating socialization and good education as mutually exclusive. And yes, if you are taking Terran Federation education as the best education, you're going to have to have people detached and removed, for their lifetimes, from Safehold's civilization, at least until they can (if ever) re-enter it as alien impostors like Merlin or Nimue.

Merlin and Nimue, at least, grew up in the wider Terran Federation civilization and learned - learned - to get along in it, to know how that society worked, to understand people in it. Socialization IS education. It's about the most relevant education a human being can get. It would be a mistake to value it so highly that everything else falls by the wayside, and, for that matter, you're probably not going to get effective socialization itself in that kind of warped regime. But putting kids in good Safehold schools while participating in Safehold's culture is going to get them the education they will need for their adulthood.

I don't understand why you think there's some rush to slap NEAT's in every head you can as soon as you can. It's not likely to make a difference dealing with the Thing in the Basement, and dealing with the Gbaba isn't on that tight a timetable. They're not scouting anymore for Ark survivors, judging from the timeline - it's why Pei waited this long to revive Nimue. They're not, apparently, scouting or exploring at all. The danger would just be if Safehold stumbled out among the stars without knowing about them, but returning to the stars knowingly in 50 years or 500 would do fine.

I suppose - wildly hypothetically - there may be some traumatized war orphan somewhere on Haven who would be, himself or herself, better off in the Cave under Owl and Nahrmahn's tutelage (taking breaks from their normal speed of thought), rather than in a well-maintained orphanage or adoptive, loving family, because, I dunno, they're so badly messed up that they can't handle the sight of other humans much but years alone, immersed in an alien, wondrous world would let them grow up into some sort of functioning adult. Stranger things have happened. But I can't believe there are many such, and I can't imagine that they're well suited to being future special forces - they'd be basket cases, with the idea being just that hopefully they'd be less dysfunctional basket cases one day.

JeffEngel wrote:I don't understand why you think there's some rush to slap NEAT's in every head you can as soon as you can. It's not likely to make a difference dealing with the Thing in the Basement, and dealing with the Gbaba isn't on that tight a timetable. They're not scouting anymore for Ark survivors, judging from the timeline - it's why Pei waited this long to revive Nimue. They're not, apparently, scouting or exploring at all. The danger would just be if Safehold stumbled out among the stars without knowing about them, but returning to the stars knowingly in 50 years or 500 would do fine.

It is not so much that NEAT technology needs to be rushed, it is that a "Terran Education" is diametrically opposed to the superstition and religion based "Safehold Education." It isn't really possible to educate engineers and technicians within the Writ-based "science" of Safehold.

A cadre of people who grow up learning from the Terran database is functionally no different than the "two technological enclaves" called for in the original Operation Ark plans.

A cadre of NEAT-equipped people would be even closer to the original plan, but that is going to take a generation or two to implement because of the age limit for installing NEAT hardware. It probably is too late for all but the youngest war orphans already, but it would not be too late for the children of war-orphans in a "New Alexandria" enclave.

Most of the orphans liberated from the death camps would be to old for NEATS. After years of Federation level schooling and with near Federation level tech and training these people would become superb Special Forces. Cayleb, Hektor and many more characters were child warriors. There is a war going on, not only with the COG but with the Gbaba, during the ACW and WW2 the South and the Axis employed children on the front lines. The orphans after undergoing the brutality of the camps would be some of the most likely people on Safehold to turn away from COG dogma, a full reveal might not be possible but a replacement dogma that is built around Seijins of the past might be possible, some would have to be weeded but there are hundreds of thousands in the camps.

Adults might choose to be seijins and could have everything but the NEAT.

We haven't seen even a hint of it in the text but I'm certain more than one imperial bodyguard has asked Merlin for training at the Mountains of Light. They got where they are by always wanting to improve.

While we're looking at ethical issues, consider the social inequality and friction if some people have NEATs and others don't. The damage to morale might even outweigh the benefits of having a cadre of TF-educated people.