Special Forces

shaeun wrote:
I am not certain that mainstreaming orphans is a moral imperative. Socialization can be done in many forms, one of which could be the formal adoption of the orphans by a newly formed 'Training Regiment'.

Is it a little out of the box? Yes, but it could be structured the say way that scouting is with adults around for supervision.

In other words - it is not an immediate non-starter. Though one would have to be very careful during the implementation phase.

The whole idea reminds me of the "child armies" we've seen in subsahara Africa and especially in Burma with the Karen tribes.

Asking children to learn to kill when they should be learning to respect and treasure life is in my view a horrible thing. It's bad enough when adults have to do it, but kids whose brains aren't even fully developed yet?

At the same time, I can understand that in some instances where survival is at stake that it happens. In that event you do what has to be done.

But the allies are not in that situation on Safehold at this stage of the game. Quite frankly, they are winning handily and have no need for such an expedient. If special forces are called for--and I think it's a good idea myself---, let's start with supplementing the training of some scout sniper units with their wiley, seasoned and tough non coms as well as some high performance officers and light infantry. Merlin could dig out the extra stuff they'd need to know and go from there.

I believe that current policy in terms of special forces recruitment is to sort out candidates whose performance in the ranks has been superior and build from there. That would also be good policy for Safehold.

Don

n7axw wrote:

6L6 wrote:Recruiting orphans from the death camps as they are liberated would be a good way of providing personel for Special Forces. They could be trained on an isolated island and used with blimps in order to provide transportation to any place on the world.

Not really good for the kids. They need to be socialized and educated, and main streamed into society, ideally by adoption into good families. Confronting them with the choice this would represent before they are old enough to make responsible choices would be deeply unethical.

Don

I agree with Don about it not being good for the kids. Furthermore there is no way that either Cayleb or Sharleyan consider the idea of child soldiers. Never. Not under any circumstances.

It would take a long time to educate these children to use modern technologies, They could also be brought up in an enviroment where Langhorne and the COG was omited. These warriors would be adults and ready by the time of the big reveal. A new crop of Seijins.

n7axw wrote:

shaeun wrote:
I am not certain that mainstreaming orphans is a moral imperative. Socialization can be done in many forms, one of which could be the formal adoption of the orphans by a newly formed 'Training Regiment'.

Is it a little out of the box? Yes, but it could be structured the say way that scouting is with adults around for supervision.

In other words - it is not an immediate non-starter. Though one would have to be very careful during the implementation phase.

The whole idea reminds me of the "child armies" we've seen in subsahara Africa and especially in Burma with the Karen tribes.

Asking children to learn to kill when they should be learning to respect and treasure life is in my view a horrible thing. It's bad enough when adults have to do it, but kids whose brains aren't even fully developed yet?

At the same time, I can understand that in some instances where survival is at stake that it happens. In that event you do what has to be done.

But the allies are not in that situation on Safehold at this stage of the game. Quite frankly, they are winning handily and have no need for such an expedient. If special forces are called for--and I think it's a good idea myself---, let's start with supplementing the training of some scout sniper units with their wiley, seasoned and tough non coms as well as some high performance officers and light infantry. Merlin could dig out the extra stuff they'd need to know and go from there.

I believe that current policy in terms of special forces recruitment is to sort out candidates whose performance in the ranks has been superior and build from there. That would also be good policy for Safehold.

Don

There are already "kids" fighting with these armies, when using our worldview. I'm thinking along the lines of the standard norms for Safehold, which is in the 10-14 year old range. They wouldn't actually see combat until 8 years later. They would need augmentations, and teaching to the current galactic standard.

Would it be ethical to raise orphans with NEATs at a CoC monastery where they were taught morality and healthy discipline, and in seclusion the works of St. Zherneau?

Then, upon coming of age, they have a free choice between becoming monks, serving the public, or becoming seijins.

If the war's over before they come of age, just drop the seijin angle and give them the option of TF education.

Hiruu wrote:
There are already "kids" fighting with these armies, when using our worldview. I'm thinking along the lines of the standard norms for Safehold, which is in the 10-14 year old range. They wouldn't actually see combat until 8 years later. They would need augmentations, and teaching to the current galactic standard.

I am aware that these incongruities exist. I am standing for what seems to me to be sound principle, but as often is the case implementation is more difficult to carry out than principle is to articulate. In the books we can call it the Howsmyn principle of avoiding child labor.

For me what I am affirming is that children are not tools to be used for adult expediency. They are entitled to the best we can do to bring them successfully to adulthood. After they have reached the age where they can responsibly choose for themselves, becoming a soldier is a worthy calling.

As for special forces, it looks to me like what I outlined in my previous post would be a much better way to proceed.

Don

Expert snuggler wrote:Would it be ethical to raise orphans with NEATs at a CoC monastery where they were taught morality and healthy discipline, and in seclusion the works of St. Zherneau?

Then, upon coming of age, they have a free choice between becoming monks, serving the public, or becoming seijins.

If the war's over before they come of age, just drop the seijin angle and give them the option of TF education.

They'd be made to keep secrets from the whole rest of society from an age too young to make the decision to accept that commitment.

Consider: the Brotherhood has been bringing people in on their secrets after careful examination of them and not - barring emergency - until they're mature adults, of an age far past majority. Mostly they have done so for people already likely to have an unorthodox perspective and/or to be inclined to live a cloistered life. And even then, they've had to make sure the person will keep the secret or they'll have to imprison or kill one of their friends.

You're suggesting letting kids in on this, keeping them isolated for years thereafter, compromising their ability to slip back into the larger society if they choose to because they'll have such a radically different background by then, and then offering them the choice of more seclusion, specific career paths, or dangerous and violent work - or, really, imprisonment or execution if they don't play ball within those bounds.

So no, it's not ethical. It's not remotely ethical. It's patently, obviously unethical. Superpowers and an awesome education aren't so knock-down wonderful that offering them to kids - who are in a crappy position to make informed choices - that they make up for denying them freedom to pick their own lifestyles and careers and participate as normal members of their greater society. It's downright predatory.

Orphans are not opportunities for recruitment. They're children.

I doubt strongly if the ICA will form its own cadre of special forces based on orphans or kids. I just can't see MWW working that way or even considering it.

WeberFan wrote:I doubt strongly if the ICA will form its own cadre of special forces based on orphans or kids. I just can't see MWW working that way or even considering it.

Me neither. The whole thing sounds like the Saints in the Duhak series. Remember Commander Beach?

Don

n7axw wrote:

WeberFan wrote:I doubt strongly if the ICA will form its own cadre of special forces based on orphans or kids. I just can't see MWW working that way or even considering it.

Me neither. The whole thing sounds like the Saints in the Duhak series. Remember Commander Beach?

Don

Not familiar with that one. I'm guessing the likely source for a lot of it is the Spartans of Halo. But yeah, it's dystopic as all get-out. If it appeared in a Weber work, it'd be to underline just how wicked the villains or desperate the (nominal?) heroes are. Clyntahn may be that evil, but there are lengths to which even he cannot (at least yet) push the CoGA. The Allies certainly aren't that desperate, much less evil.