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Sorry to say

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Re: Sorry to say
Post by Michael Everett   » Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:28 am

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Annachie wrote:Biochem, you completely ignore the group that says abortion is wrong but it is the womans choice, not yours or mine.

The issue that many people overlook regarding abortion is what happens to the baby?
The mother seeks abortion because she does not want said baby. It may be due to lifestyle, finances (babies are expensive!) or culture (get rid of the baby before the mother's parent realize their daughter hasn't been a good girl and take drastic action to punish her in order to restore the so-called Family Honor).
So, we need to look at the why of abortion. What are the reasons behind a mother not wanting a child? What circumstances does she live in? Would a pregnancy out of wedlock result in her having her throat slit?
(By the way, that last one is unfortunately known to happen, families from highly religious countries follow the creeds of Family Honor and do things that are seen as regaining honor by their own culture, but as barbaric by many others. In several cultures, becoming pregnant without being married is grounds to be forced to commit suicide by being locked into a room with a knife. The girl either starves to death or uses the knife to end her own life. Either way, the family claims that the girl was depressed and commited suicide.)
So, a wider support base will be needed, including safe houses for teenage mothers whose family are out to kill them due to cultural issues.
As for those who don't think that they can afford to raise a baby, you need somewhere for the baby to go. Adoption would be a good move, but you need to check to see if the adopting family are going to be a good family. Childrens homes are an obvious choice, but unless they are run by incredibly skilled people, they tend to slide somewhat towards "Lord of the Flies"-type structure with the children literally fighting to be top dog so that they can order the others around.
Plus, as Rotherham proved, childrens homes can easily become places for pedophiles to find their next victims.
Even after all that has been sorted, what about things like Ectopic Pregnancies where the child is growing inside the Fallopian Tube? Although extremely rare, such things are quite lethal since the Fallopian Tube does not expand the way the womb does and will therefore break, causing the mother to die of serious internal trauma. The only way to avoid losing both mother and child in cases like that is to abort the child.

Abortion is a very complex issue. Simple statements like "Woman's Right" or "Abortion Is Murder" do not reflect even a small portion of the complexities that help to create the entire situation.

Of course, cultural considerations in multicultural societies really don't help matters, especially since many of the smaller cultures absolutely detest any culture other than their own.
I swear that some of them can be as bad as Internet Activists...

Edit - And then there are the fringe groups...
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by Michael Riddell   » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:29 am

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Naturally, the best way for a woman/girl to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is to not get pregnant in the first place.

Easier said (or typed) than done, of course.

Mike.
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Gonnae no DAE that!

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Re: Sorry to say
Post by Eyal   » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:56 pm

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PP requires federal funding while abortions constitute 3% of its activity. That suggests to me that should abortions be spun off into a seperate organization said organization would quickly find itself unable to function, as it could only fund itself by charging for its services; unless it jacked up its prices, which would make it unavailable to the poor.

biochem wrote:This is in reference to the point that PP could split into 2 entirely separate companies. Say PP Women's Services which provides only non-abortion services and PP Abortion Services which provides only abortions and nothing else. Since PP is in trouble due to it's abortion services and abortion is what is driving the defunding debate, if those were split off into their own company there would be no compelling reason for conservatives to push to defund the now independent PP Women's Services since they don't provide abortions.
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:32 pm

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Annachie wrote:
Daryl wrote:I'm either a bit thick, ill-informed, or have a very different world view; but it seems that the cornerstone of this debate is that Federal funds shouldn't be used for abortions.
Why not?

Religion. Pure and simple.

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So a mom gives birth then kills the child. Did she commit murder?

We are unable to say scientifically when life begins. So when is it murder? I got no clue. But it is not just a religious question.

It is further muddied by still births and miscarriages.

Not just a religious question.

Enjoy the day,
T2M
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:53 pm

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thinkstoomuch wrote:So a mom gives birth then kills the child. Did she commit murder?

Yup.
We are unable to say scientifically when life begins. So when is it murder? I got no clue. But it is not just a religious question.

It is further muddied by still births and miscarriages.

Not just a religious question.

Enjoy the day,
T2M

That question is the biggest red herring ever put forth. Life began three and a half billion years ago, and every living thing today is connected back to that beginning by an unbroken chain of living things. The sperm and egg cells were already alive; if not, they would not have worked and there wouldn't be a pregnancy. A number of things happen at fertilization; "life beginning" is not one of them. So the pertinent question is not "is it alive?" - there would be nothing to debate if not. Nor is the question "Is it human?" Of course it is. So is a hangnail. The question that must be answered is, "Is it a person?"

Five minutes after fertilization, the answer is obviously NO. Five minutes before delivery, it is obviously YES. Some time during the long and complex process of development a threshold is crossed, and that is what must be determined. The law requires a sharply defined, "bright line" boundary, but what we have to work with is a whole lot of gray and fuzzy.

I think the answer has to be brain development. We declare people dead when their brains stop working; there should be a similar situation before they start. Find the latest point at which the brain is not sufficiently complex and active to qualify as an independent consciousness. After that point, abortion must no longer be a matter of convenience.

The big problem with this issue is that far too many on both sides throw facts, logic and rational thought under the bus and are reduced to screaming hysterically at each other, apparently in the belief that the side that screams loudest wins. Any notion that this is not an effective way to sove anything seems to escape all of them.
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by Annachie   » Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:32 am

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Imaginos, a slightly simpler point is viability, which is around the 20 week mark (Don't remember it exactly)
A point that we already kind of know from past experience.

Brain developement would be difficult to determine and quantify, especially as we need to know a lot more about brain developement first.

Personally 12 weeks is about the limit in normal circumstances.
For no particular scientific reason.

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Re: Sorry to say
Post by dscott8   » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:41 pm

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PeterZ wrote:True, but national defense has been a well defined Constitutional responsibility of the federal Government. I am all for pacifists screaming bloody murder when our military is misused and the responsibility for defending our nation turns into something else a bit more aggressive.


Yet I, an atheist, pay more taxes than I should because religious organizations get tax exemptions, in defiance of the First Amendment. Exempting a multimillion dollar building from real estate taxes just because people use it to shout "hosannah!" means that I pay for the roads they use to drive there, and they don't. Religions should only be tax exempt on the money they actually spend on charitable purposes, and promoting the religion is not a charity.
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by dscott8   » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:42 pm

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Michael Riddell wrote:Naturally, the best way for a woman/girl to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is to not get pregnant in the first place.

Easier said (or typed) than done, of course.

Mike.

But the people who want to shut down women's reproductive rights are the same people who oppose realistic sex education. Go figure.
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by Tenshinai   » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:03 pm

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Michael Riddell wrote:Naturally, the best way for a woman/girl to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is to not get pregnant in the first place.

Easier said (or typed) than done, of course.

Mike.


Beacuse obviously it is just the woman´s "fault"?

Amazing that...
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by Tenshinai   » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:53 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:Abortion is a very complex issue. Simple statements like "Woman's Right" or "Abortion Is Murder" do not reflect even a small portion of the complexities that help to create the entire situation.


While i do not disagree, you´re wrong in one thing, it is extremely simple in one way.

If the woman does not have the choice, then WHO DOES?

Who has the right to FORCE a woman to take risks(ALL pregnancies involves risk for the pregnant woman) as well as spend a significant part of her life and energy doing something regardless of her wishes?

Noone who truly believes even slightly in individual freedom can realistically be opposed to abortion being legal and the individuals choice, without being insane.

Anyone opposing legal abortion is literally trying to force women to play Russian roulette. Actually, Russian roulette has BETTER odds than pregnancy has if you look at any and all problems that COULD become life threatening. Problems that just happen to be costly in the US system.

And unless you also guarantee FREE healthcare and enough child support to cover the COMPLETE costs, you are also forcing women to gamble their economical and professional futures.
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