[HFQ] SPOILERS -- Why didn't Merlin?

It may work to EOC advantage if the Temple expends resources trying to duplicate technology that is out of their reach. The more effort they spend trying to field comparable technology, the less they'll be able to expend fielding current, effective, if dated tech.

Henry Brown wrote:

n7axw wrote:Dreadnaught was one of the Rotweillers. So the Dohlarans didn't come up with anything startlingly new in technology with the possible exception of breech loading rifled cannon which admittedly is serious enough...

More to the point, Dreadnaught was Sharpfield's flagship. Does he survive?

Don

Well, since you just said you don't mind spoilers in another thread...




stop now if you change your mind


...he was not on board. In fact, are you sure it was his flagship? Because I don't remember him being on Dreadnaught at all in the book.

BTW, I have been meaning to ask: what does n7axw stand for?

It was in LAMA, anyway... I went back and looked. n7axw is my amateur radio call sign.

Don

Does no one else see the similarities between the current war and the war the TF fought against the Gbaba? I think it is somewhat interesting to see the church as early TF, reverse engineering the advanced tech that the EoC [Gbaba) have and are using against them in order to put up a fight, it may only be me, but just wanted to mention it.

ChaChaCharms wrote:Does no one else see the similarities between the current war and the war the TF fought against the Gbaba? I think it is somewhat interesting to see the church as early TF, reverse engineering the advanced tech that the EoC [Gbaba) have and are using against them in order to put up a fight, it may only be me, but just wanted to mention it.

Or possibly how the war against the Gbaba will go after the TF rises again.

In my opinion the accidental capture of the ironclad actually furthers Merlin's plans. It is bad for Charis but good for Merlin.

That's because it gives the church a leg up - meaning furthering technical innovation and the mindset going with it - without being too dangerous for Charis. An effort to duplicate it makes it necessary to embrace new tech and production methods which in turn gives a boost to the very tech people that Chlynthan distrusts. In short the Ironclad is another wedge driven into the church.

On an aside: The Ironclad will be obsolete once the King Haarahlds commision. So its capture is nothing more than a temporariy setback for Charis. In no way a catastrophy.

Bruno Behrends wrote:In my opinion the accidental capture of the ironclad actually furthers Merlin's plans. It is bad for Charis but good for Merlin.

That's because it gives the church a leg up - meaning furthering technical innovation and the mindset going with it - without being too dangerous for Charis. An effort to duplicate it makes it necessary to embrace new tech and production methods which in turn gives a boost to the very tech people that Chlynthan distrusts. In short the Ironclad is another wedge driven into the church.

On an aside: The Ironclad will be obsolete once the King Haarahlds commision. So its capture is nothing more than a temporariy setback for Charis. In no way a catastrophy.

I really doubt that the presence of the ironclad does much for innovation on the other side. They can certainly look at it and try to imitate some of the ideas, especially with the guns. But that's not really innovating at all.

There has been some innovating going on there, But when you get right down to it, when you have to protect your innovators from the inquisition, innovation gets pretty restricted.

As for the Haarahlds, I'm hoping they show up presently.

Don

n7axw wrote:

Bruno Behrends wrote:In my opinion the accidental capture of the ironclad actually furthers Merlin's plans. It is bad for Charis but good for Merlin.

That's because it gives the church a leg up - meaning furthering technical innovation and the mindset going with it - without being too dangerous for Charis. An effort to duplicate it makes it necessary to embrace new tech and production methods which in turn gives a boost to the very tech people that Chlynthan distrusts. In short the Ironclad is another wedge driven into the church.

On an aside: The Ironclad will be obsolete once the King Haarahlds commision. So its capture is nothing more than a temporariy setback for Charis. In no way a catastrophy.

I really doubt that the presence of the ironclad does much for innovation on the other side. They can certainly look at it and try to imitate some of the ideas, especially with the guns. But that's not really innovating at all.

There has been some innovating going on there, But when you get right down to it, when you have to protect your innovators from the inquisition, innovation gets pretty restricted.

As for the Haarahlds, I'm hoping they show up presently.

Don

(more spoilers)

I wouldn't even go so far as to call it a setback. It'll take a few months to go over Dreadnought, duplicate its ammunition, and figure out how the guns work. By the time they get it into service, the King Haarahlds are going to be commissioned based on the revised timeline after the delays in HFQ. At that point, the game is up for every non-Charisian navy on Safehold.

Dreadnought gives their technicians something to concentrate on in the meantime, and maintains the illusion that they can keep up with Charis. It'll be a profound shock unlike anything else in the Jihad to date, especially after the feeling that they were making progress with Dreadnought's capture. Not only will it strongly suggest the Church can and will likely lose (which people are already starting to suspect), it might even be enough to push Dohlar to follow the Desnairian example and back out of the Jihad in order to "regroup." They've already lost an army, no need to lose their entire navy as well.

Then there's Thirsk. Merlin showed up at his home at the end of HFQ, and the impossibility of his being there suggests that he might get a version of the truth along with the good news about his family. Either of those ought to be enough to get him to leave Dohlar altogether when coupled with his own troubles over the Jihad's morality. Throw in some imagery of what the Inquisition is actually up to, and his oath to Rahnyld might not be enough to keep him from realizing what he's actually in service of.

I'd say that it's likely Thirsk is going to be leaving Dohlar. Whether he enters Charisian service, or just stays neutral and goes off with his family, the defection of one of the Jihad's only heroes is going to be even worse than when Irys and Daivyn went over to Charis. All of this together is going to make it clear that the wheels are coming off, and that might be enough to drive Clyntahn to take control of the Jihad like he threatens to (520).

At that point, the Church's technicians are going to be on thin ice with the Inquisition. Irrational as Clyntahn is, there's a chance he might strike out at them since he can't reach any from Charis to assuage his need to feel in control.

Perhaps a King Haarald will accidentally run up against Dreadnaught and recapture it. You know, then put it in tow as an auxillary lighter or something. Next book, though...

Bruno Behrends wrote:On an aside: The Ironclad will be obsolete once the King Haarahlds commision. So its capture is nothing more than a temporariy setback for Charis. In no way a catastrophy.

Yeah, the King Harahlds were described as being able to defeat every other naval ship on Safehold COMBINED. I assume that also means Charis' own preexisting Ironclads.

Also, if there was any place to use the SNARC bombs, it would have been on the op to rescue Thirsk's family since the entire operation included blowing up the whole ship anyway. But Merlin didn't do that. Instead he used a PRIMITIVE (relatively speaking) bomb to do the job because it used chemical explosives.

Perhaps there's a reason for that? Like a SNARC induced explosion having a distinctive signature the orbiting sensors would recognize?

Seemed to be some wrong info in here....

Dreadnaught did not have breechloaders, those were the *city class* ? which were used elsewhere. Dreadnaught was only an ironclad.

Second, they go over what the *capture* of the ship truly impacts in the book - the main points were:

1. The armor of the ship was somehow stronger on one side, but they had no idea how to even begin to duplicate that.
2. The armor was twice the thickness, and instead of a 2x2 foot squad the CoGA can make, it was 4x4? or double, or bigger (I forget the exact wording)
3. The shells were half the size and weight of shells the CoGA can make, for the same (but more reliable) boom//explosion//destructiveness. No real indication of ability to duplicate... assumption I made was that the chemicals inside Charisian shells would not be easy for the CoGA to figure out. Would require chemical formula and processes.
4. One of the Charisian POV's descriptions of *What would COGA gain from capturing the ship*, was the.. mahndaran? (spelling), recoil system was in place on the guns. The CoGA POV did not go into the recoil systems after capture.