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Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold
Post by hanuman   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:39 am

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The difficult part will come after the defeat of the CoGA, however that is accomplished. However, the foundations for the eventual widespread acceptance of the 'truth' throughout Safe hold have already been laid down. By that I mean the inquisitive, challenging mindset that seeks to understand the why of how things work, and how to apply that knowledge in more efficient and innovative ways. It's like Merlin said, in order to defeat Charis the CoGA will need to adopt the same techniques and mindset, and if it does, it will simply ensure its own demise. It's a catch-22 situation, from which the Temple cannot escape. It is, in effect, a dead church walking.

Mind you, that process will take a long long time. Maybe not centuries as it did on Earth, but a long time indeed. I mean, despite all the evidence to the contrary, to this day there are still many people who reject any scientific explanations for natural processes and phenomena.
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Re: Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:56 am

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n7axw wrote:And yes, the standards do have to be taught. I love children dearly, but the little monsters do have to be civilized. They don't start out that way. Fortunately, in an atmosphere of loving support, they generally will pick up most of it by example. Bless their pea-picken little hearts, they are great mimics.

Don


Yeah, they are self-centered, selfish, sociopathic narcissists. Fortunately you can train most of them out of it.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:18 am

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No, the loyalists won't switch sides this late in the game. They will fight and die with the CoGA. The CoGA needs to be defeated and its theology discredited. What Chairs must do now is to find qualities in the loyalists that they can connect with. That connection makes the Charisian heretics less servants of Shan-wei and more children of God in the eyes of rank and file temple loyalists. Simply pounding on the loyalists until they agree with the CoC position persuades no one. Recognizing why loyalists believe as they do and the value of the conviction they hold will encourage them to reciprocate. A little at first and with continued dialogue more and more.

The chore for Charis and Siddermark is to look into the eyes of loyalists who either tacitly or actively agreed to support the Inquisition's activities and see the humanity that resides there. Absent this accomplishment, the Loyalists will continue to see servants of Shan-wei. It is incumbent on Charis because Charis rebelled against the legitimate authority on Safehold. Since that rebellion was against the divinely sanctioned authority over all Creation, Charis MUST justify that rebellion to the rest of Safehold.

All they can do in the process of succeeding in their rebellion is to plant the seeds in their rank and file enemy that they are not evil and their cause is not evil. Every bit of vengeance or stark retribution inconsistent with Charis' overarching reasons for their rebellion undercuts Charis' assertion that they are indeed not evil. Killing Inquisitors in the process of their armed rebellion is consistent with their purpose. Demanding the lives of prisoners absent a trial is not.

hanuman wrote:Peter, on this we are definitely in agreement. The war is ultimately a clash of philosophies, of ideas and worldviews. The military conflict is simply a tool, and but one such tool, that is utilized to resolve that clash.

However, unless the EoC launches a salted earth campaign against the Temple and anyone who remains loyal to it, the only way the EoC can win is by winning the war of ideas and philosophies. It needs to CONVINCE the Temple's adherents to switch sides, because ultimately forced conversion simply does not work. And by now we know that Cayleb and Sharleyan - not to mention Mikhail - will never attempt forced conversion.

I know we've read about Thirsk's private doubts as well as those of other individuals on the Temple's side. But I think we'll all agree that there are numerous others that we'll never read about who are having serious doubts about the Temple right about now, and that as rumours of the Temple's atrocities spread, those numbers will only continue to grow.

Those Reformists, far more than the EoC, will be the Temple's downfall, I suspect. The Temple will, simply put, hemorrhage till it collapses, as more and more of its adherents realize how truly corrupt its doctrine and leadership have become.
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Re: Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold
Post by shaeun   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:43 pm

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Bruno Behrends wrote:In RL christianity somehow managed to replace other religions and spread throughout Europe. So we know from history that its not impossible to persuade whole populations to change their faith.

However we also know this process took about 1.5 millenia.

The counter examples would be the breakdown of Nazi and Communist ideologies I suppose. In those cases the 'faith' changed over time periods much shorter than a lifetime. So that's possible also.

In each of the latter cases the sudden change came to pass due to a complete meltdown of the old system. It only works if the old system is so thoroughly discredited that everyone can see it is completely unworkable.

(Even then large numbers of people tend to stick to the unworkable system. But enough change their mind to make a real system change possible.)

So I guess DW could go either way. But on Safehold things are more complicated than in RL because of the way the population was indoctrinated for a thousand years (not just decades like with RL Nazism or Communism) AND the system basically worked well enough for the majority.

If not for the Gbabba threat - which is completely abstract and removed from daily life - the old church system was stable and providing most people with their needs. So changing faith over a short period of time will be hard. But DW knows that. I think he'll be able to describe it in a believable way.


Christianity has some issues historically speaking.

There were some periods of time when the Organized Church was 'not so nice' to those who disagreed with them. So - the unity of the Christian Church was created by the sword. The unity in doctrine was created by the Emperor Constantine, which is where the swords that were used later originated.

This seems to mirror the events on Safehold...

There were complete pogroms that were intended to force those of other faiths to convert.

This is why so many Latin American residents have Jewish ancestry. Some of them practices Judaism in secret, others just gave it up. The penalty for remaining in the country as a Jew was death. (This is from the Jewish Expulsion in 1492 from Spain)

This is one of the ways how Christianity became so widespread. Another was that it was adopted as the state religion by one of the largest polities on the planet.

In any event, just using military force will eventually work, though subverting the church by appealing to ta sense of fairness should work faster.
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Re: Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold
Post by n7axw   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:26 pm

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What is not sufficiently considered is the normal role of religion in society. For thousands of years it was the primary source of legitimacy for the social contract under which people lived.

Actually when you think about it, the notion that you can have socially sanctioned religious diversity or get by without religion altogether is only a bit more than a couple hundred years old. Just how the experiment will turn out is a question on which the jury is still out. We don't know whether it will sustain itself over time.

Viewed that way, it's no wonder the TLs are scared stiff, given the COGA's role as a world wide monolithic teligion on Safehold.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold
Post by hanuman   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:17 pm

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n7axw wrote:What is not sufficiently considered is the normal role of religion in society. For thousands of years it was the primary source of legitimacy for the social contract under which people lived.

Actually when you think about it, the notion that you can have socially sanctioned religious diversity or get by without religion altogether is only a bit more than a couple hundred years old. Just how the experiment will turn out is a question on which the jury is still out. We don't know whether it will sustain itself over time.


Don


Don, religious intolerance is a peculiar quality of specifically the Abrahamic faiths. Historically, most societies around the globe have been remarkably accepting of 'foreign' religious traditions, often going as far as to incorporate aspects of those 'foreign' religions into their own belief systems. Looking at the world through a Western-centric lense can be deceptive.

Still, the Safeholdian religion had been derived from the Abrahamic traditions, so your point is well received.
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Re: Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:57 pm

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n7axw wrote:What is not sufficiently considered is the normal role of religion in society. For thousands of years it was the primary source of legitimacy for the social contract under which people lived.

Actually when you think about it, the notion that you can have socially sanctioned religious diversity or get by without religion altogether is only a bit more than a couple hundred years old. Just how the experiment will turn out is a question on which the jury is still out. We don't know whether it will sustain itself over time.

Viewed that way, it's no wonder the TLs are scared stiff, given the COGA's role as a world wide monolithic teligion on Safehold.

Don

Really, it's viewing it that way that's been the deal-breaker for Rhobair Duchairn giving up on the jihad as a festival of blood for no good purpose: he simply cannot accept a permanent schism of Mother Church. If it goes on, then there will be no authority over warring states to rein them in, no authority to settle wars, nothing to keep people from setting up rival religions with the voice of God Himself (as they each hear it) dedicated to purging the world of the unbeliever.

In a way, the Church has been a parent for secular states that have never enjoyed proper sovereignty or had to deal with one another as peers without a babysitter. They've been juvenile political powers forever, til Charis stepped up and claimed adulthood in defiance. (Not unlikely, when the abused kid is kicked out of the house and has a hit put out on them by "loving" parents...)

It's terrifying for Duchairn. He's got good reason to be scared. He's also, unfortunately, got good reason to get over it and realize that, as scary as that is, the schism is permanent and the Church isn't his anymore. It's Clyntahn's. The only place on Safehold the Church gets to be what Duchairn now knows it should be is on the other side of the war anymore.
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Re: Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold
Post by n7axw   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:56 pm

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hanuman wrote:
n7axw wrote:What is not sufficiently considered is the normal role of religion in society. For thousands of years it was the primary source of legitimacy for the social contract under which people lived.

Actually when you think about it, the notion that you can have socially sanctioned religious diversity or get by without religion altogether is only a bit more than a couple hundred years old. Just how the experiment will turn out is a question on which the jury is still out. We don't know whether it will sustain itself over time.


Don


Don, religious intolerance is a peculiar quality of specifically the Abrahamic faiths. Historically, most societies around the globe have been remarkably accepting of 'foreign' religious traditions, often going as far as to incorporate aspects of those 'foreign' religions into their own belief systems. Looking at the world through a Western-centric lense can be deceptive.

Still, the Safeholdian religion had been derived from the Abrahamic traditions, so your point is well received.


Not true in so many ways that I can scarcely count them. In fact about the only faith I can think of that hasn't gone through its own period of intolerance is Buddaism. Hinduism certainly has and in at least some ways continues so today. In China Confucionism reacted poorly to Buddists invading its turf. There was a similar clash with Shinto and Buddha in Japan.

In the old Roman Empire the emperors were regarded divine and took it as an affront when Christians refused to accord them that status. People who refused to sacrifice to the gods were regaarded and persectuted as athiests. In Africa those who didn't worship the tribal gods were frequently scapegoated and offered as sacrifice to those gods.

There is a reason for all of this. Not to embrace the local gods is to break the social contract. That threatens the community as a whole. That almost always what is behind religious tolerance. Perhaps a good illustration of this is in reformation era Germany where the rule became, As goes the prince, so goes the territory (not an exact quote). The point was that religious diversity was regarded socially destructive. So Protestants in Catholic territories were often forced to convert or to move Protestant territories and vice versa.

The point is that the connection between religion and the social contract meant that intolerance toward outsiders and dissidents was inevitable.

Now it is true that the Abrahamic faiths have sometimes practiced and been subjected to a specific type of intolerance. That comes because those faiths claim an exclusive claim not only on one tribe or people, but on all people. God alone is God of the whole earth. To say that is to say that the alternatives are false.

That assertion led to the persecution of Christians in the Roman era. Had the Christians been willing to sacrifice to the Roman gods and acknowledge the emperor as divine, there would have been no trouble. They could have worshiped Christ as one god among many in the Empire. Or today, Isis destroys monuments to ancient civilizations on the basis of a fundamental reading of Islam that declares those monuments as tributes to idols.

But make no mistake about it. Intolerance has been the common property of all religion going back as long as recorded history allows us to remember.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold
Post by Louis R   » Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:51 am

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Still not entirely correct, in regards to Rome:

The Romans had no objection to people not worshiping their gods - nor even the emperor. The Jews were uncompromisingly monotheistic, and were given no grief whatsoever over that. In fact, in places - Sinope, iirc, being the most significant - they were handed existing pagan sanctuaries for conversion into synagogues. Which is less surprising when you realise that they were as much as 10% of the population of the Empire. They differed from the proto-Christians on two significant points. Within the context of their worship, they did offer prayers for the well-being and success of the Emperor, without ever hinting at acceptance of his demi-divine status. And, they drove the point that they _were_ monotheists home in way Rome could understand: with the points of their swords and spears. 3 times in fact, if you count their ejection of the Seleucids from the region between Egypt and Syria. [Admittedly, the Romans weren't going to put up with rebellion, but they understood it and respected anyone who could just about fight them to a standstill twice in as many generations.] Other essentially monotheistic cults made similar accommodation with the need for public and visible support for the well-being of the Empire and its rulers, although i don't think any of them were as uncompromisingly exclusivist as Jews and Christians. As long as their rites didn't include human sacrifice they faced no difficulties at all.

Oh, there was one further difference, come to think of it: by the 3rd century, the Jews could demonstrate over 1200 years of historical and religious continuity, making them older than Rome itself. They were part of the mos maiorum of the Empire, the things received from the ancestors. Christianity was an innovation, res novae: revolutionary. And who knew where the revolution would stop. One thing about Washington the Romans would have understood was the Committee on Unamerican Activities.

n7axw wrote:
hanuman wrote:Don, religious intolerance is a peculiar quality of specifically the Abrahamic faiths. Historically, most societies around the globe have been remarkably accepting of 'foreign' religious traditions, often going as far as to incorporate aspects of those 'foreign' religions into their own belief systems. Looking at the world through a Western-centric lense can be deceptive.

Still, the Safeholdian religion had been derived from the Abrahamic traditions, so your point is well received.


Not true in so many ways that I can scarcely count them. In fact about the only faith I can think of that hasn't gone through its own period of intolerance is Buddaism. Hinduism certainly has and in at least some ways continues so today. In China Confucionism reacted poorly to Buddists invading its turf. There was a similar clash with Shinto and Buddha in Japan.

In the old Roman Empire the emperors were regarded divine and took it as an affront when Christians refused to accord them that status. People who refused to sacrifice to the gods were regaarded and persectuted as athiests. In Africa those who didn't worship the tribal gods were frequently scapegoated and offered as sacrifice to those gods.

There is a reason for all of this. Not to embrace the local gods is to break the social contract. That threatens the community as a whole. That almost always what is behind religious tolerance. Perhaps a good illustration of this is in reformation era Germany where the rule became, As goes the prince, so goes the territory (not an exact quote). The point was that religious diversity was regarded socially destructive. So Protestants in Catholic territories were often forced to convert or to move Protestant territories and vice versa.

The point is that the connection between religion and the social contract meant that intolerance toward outsiders and dissidents was inevitable.

Now it is true that the Abrahamic faiths have sometimes practiced and been subjected to a specific type of intolerance. That comes because those faiths claim an exclusive claim not only on one tribe or people, but on all people. God alone is God of the whole earth. To say that is to say that the alternatives are false.

That assertion led to the persecution of Christians in the Roman era. Had the Christians been willing to sacrifice to the Roman gods and acknowledge the emperor as divine, there would have been no trouble. They could have worshiped Christ as one god among many in the Empire. Or today, Isis destroys monuments to ancient civilizations on the basis of a fundamental reading of Islam that declares those monuments as tributes to idols.

But make no mistake about it. Intolerance has been the common property of all religion going back as long as recorded history allows us to remember.

Don
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Re: Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold
Post by n7axw   » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:06 am

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Louis R wrote:Still not entirely correct, in regards to Rome:

The Romans had no objection to people not worshiping their gods - nor even the emperor. The Jews were uncompromisingly monotheistic, and were given no grief whatsoever over that. In fact, in places - Sinope, iirc, being the most significant - they were handed existing pagan sanctuaries for conversion into synagogues. Which is less surprising when you realise that they were as much as 10% of the population of the Empire. They differed from the proto-Christians on two significant points. Within the context of their worship, they did offer prayers for the well-being and success of the Emperor, without ever hinting at acceptance of his demi-divine status. And, they drove the point that they _were_ monotheists home in way Rome could understand: with the points of their swords and spears. 3 times in fact, if you count their ejection of the Seleucids from the region between Egypt and Syria. [Admittedly, the Romans weren't going to put up with rebellion, but they understood it and respected anyone who could just about fight them to a standstill twice in as many generations.] Other essentially monotheistic cults made similar accommodation with the need for public and visible support for the well-being of the Empire and its rulers, although i don't think any of them were as uncompromisingly exclusivist as Jews and Christians. As long as their rites didn't include human sacrifice they faced no difficulties at all.

Oh, there was one further difference, come to think of it: by the 3rd century, the Jews could demonstrate over 1200 years of historical and religious continuity, making them older than Rome itself. They were part of the mos maiorum of the Empire, the things received from the ancestors. Christianity was an innovation, res novae: revolutionary. And who knew where the revolution would stop. One thing about Washington the Romans would have understood was the Committee on Unamerican Activities.



Hi Louis R

Good post. But it does need a bit of refinement. It's true that the Jews had been granted an exemption to the normal rule of worshiping the emperor and for a while Christians tried to pass themselves off as another variety of JeW.

But as I understand it, what was normally expected was affirm the emperor as divine, sacrifice to the gods and after that worship how you want. Doing that was a way for the Romans to demand acknowledgement of their preeminence. That in turn ties back into the tie between religion and the social contract to which I referred earlier. The whole notion of separating them would have been completely alien to them.

Just one more comment...in the Bible, Chistians are exhorted to pray for kings and all in authority. That would have ibcluded the emperor.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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