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Sorry to say

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Re: Sorry to say
Post by Michael Everett   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:44 am

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Daryl wrote:I'm either a bit thick, ill-informed, or have a very different world view; but it seems that the cornerstone of this debate is that Federal funds shouldn't be used for abortions.
Why not?

Cuts down on the number of future taxpayers/voters.
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:28 am

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Michael Everett wrote:
Daryl wrote:I'm either a bit thick, ill-informed, or have a very different world view; but it seems that the cornerstone of this debate is that Federal funds shouldn't be used for abortions.
Why not?

Cuts down on the number of future taxpayers/voters.


And it means that those that believe abortion to be a moral evil must support it through their tax dollars. Under some conditions it is the lesser of available evils, but those conditions are much rarer than is the case in reality.

Anyone who believes abortions under any circumstances is a good thing may support it as they see fit. Demanding through the force of government those that do not agree to do so forces those others into supporting what they perceive as immoral.
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by munroburton   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:18 pm

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I saw the movie Swing Vote fairly recently.

The lead character spent a lot of time agonising between the pro-choice and the pro-life rights. He eventually concluded that if abortion is to be banned, the state takes upon itself the responsibility for all children.

Adoption, fostering and child protective services consequently would have to expand quite a bit. They're not even anywhere near good enough to meet current demands.

IMO, people against abortion should ask themselves why they do not adopt children(if they do not).
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:24 pm

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PeterZ wrote:And it means that those that believe abortion to be a moral evil must support it through their tax dollars. Under some conditions it is the lesser of available evils, but those conditions are much rarer than is the case in reality.

Anyone who believes abortions under any circumstances is a good thing may support it as they see fit. Demanding through the force of government those that do not agree to do so forces those others into supporting what they perceive as immoral.


So pacifists get to demand we don't use tax dollars for the Military then... right? And as the moral thing to do you would fully support that of course?
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by biochem   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:09 pm

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BrightSoul wrote:Sorry to say that if you lie loud enough and often enough the ignorant will believe anything.

3% of PP activity is related to abortion...none of it federally funded.

80% of the women served by PP are poor.

Thou shalt not bear false witness. Twits.

Gonna screw everyone with this fricking blatant distraction tactic. No need to do anything but scream about sideline issues while the economy goes into the crapper.



There is a very simple way Planned Parenthood could solve their problem. They could spin off abortion as a separate business, COLLECTING ALL THE FEDERAL FUNDS THEY WISH WITHOUT CONTROVERSY for the remaining women's healthcare business. You cannot tell me that the very smart intelligent politically savvy individuals running planned parenthood have not considered this course of action. They must want abortion/nonabortion funding comingled. Given the perpetual risk posed to their Federal $ by their abortion activities, I believe that they care more about being able to provide unrestricted abortions than about providing healthcare to the poor.

There are an awful lot of comprehensive health clinics out there that are not associated with Planned Parenthood. Multiple graphic so this type (some national, some state, some local) have been appearing in news stories. All of the Republican bills require any money from defunding of Planned Parenthood clinics to be reallocated to these other health care facilities.


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Re: Sorry to say
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:14 pm

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biochem wrote:There is a very simple way Planned Parenthood could solve their problem. They could spin off abortion as a separate business, COLLECTING ALL THE FEDERAL FUNDS THEY WISH WITHOUT CONTROVERSY for the remaining women's healthcare business.


They already segregate them. The people going after them know this and just don;t give a crap... so pretending that just segregating them *more* would make the problem go away is naive.


There are an awful lot of comprehensive health clinics out there that are not associated with Planned Parenthood. Multiple graphic so this type (some national, some state, some local) have been appearing in news stories. All of the Republican bills require any money from defunding of Planned Parenthood clinics to be reallocated to these other health care facilities.


You get that that that isn't a map of clinics that provide the kind of financially accessible services specifically directed at low income people that Planned Parenthood provides, and that many of those low income people simply can't afford many of those other clinics services so they might as well not exist for them... right? Putting aside that looking at it as a national map you lose a lot of the fine detail about how geographically accessible many of those clinics are to low income neighborhoods with people living in them for whom lengthy trips to a clinic are in and of themselves a potential financial hardship?
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by Donnachaidh   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:16 pm

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What is the definition of "comprehensive care clinics"?

I ask because, from what I've seen most of the organizations that hate Planned Parenthood include "pregnancy crisis centers", which rarely offer any medical services and have a well documented history of presenting misleading information to patients (along with many instances of knowingly lying to patients and/or presenting incredibly rare worst case scenarios as typical).

biochem wrote:
BrightSoul wrote:Sorry to say that if you lie loud enough and often enough the ignorant will believe anything.

3% of PP activity is related to abortion...none of it federally funded.

80% of the women served by PP are poor.

Thou shalt not bear false witness. Twits.

Gonna screw everyone with this fricking blatant distraction tactic. No need to do anything but scream about sideline issues while the economy goes into the crapper.



There is a very simple way Planned Parenthood could solve their problem. They could spin off abortion as a separate business, COLLECTING ALL THE FEDERAL FUNDS THEY WISH WITHOUT CONTROVERSY for the remaining women's healthcare business. You cannot tell me that the very smart intelligent politically savvy individuals running planned parenthood have not considered this course of action. They must want abortion/nonabortion funding comingled. Given the perpetual risk posed to their Federal $ by their abortion activities, I believe that they care more about being able to provide unrestricted abortions than about providing healthcare to the poor.

There are an awful lot of comprehensive health clinics out there that are not associated with Planned Parenthood. Multiple graphic so this type (some national, some state, some local) have been appearing in news stories. All of the Republican bills require any money from defunding of Planned Parenthood clinics to be reallocated to these other health care facilities.

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Re: Sorry to say
Post by biochem   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:49 pm

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Daryl wrote:I'm either a bit thick, ill-informed, or have a very different world view; but it seems that the cornerstone of this debate is that Federal funds shouldn't be used for abortions.
Why not?


The US population is split into roughly 3 grouping on the issue.

Pro-life - Believe abortion is murder and should be prohibited under the majority of circumstances.

Pro-choice - Believe abortion is not murder and that the interests of the mother are paramount. Generally believe it should be legal except in the 3rd trimester for almost any reason.

In-between group - Believe abortion is close enough to murder to be a moral evil. However they believe the negatives of outright prohibition (aka back alley abortions) are too significant to outlaw abortion. However, because of their feeling that it is a moral evil, they support restrictions - one of which is we are not going to pay it.

Since neither pro-life nor pro-choice has a majority it is this group who decides whether or not a restriction will be put in place.
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by biochem   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:56 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
biochem wrote:There is a very simple way Planned Parenthood could solve their problem. They could spin off abortion as a separate business, COLLECTING ALL THE FEDERAL FUNDS THEY WISH WITHOUT CONTROVERSY for the remaining women's healthcare business.


They already segregate them. The people going after them know this and just don;t give a crap... so pretending that just segregating them *more* would make the problem go away is naive.


Right now the segregation is just an accounting trick. Two entirely separate business entities run from physically separate locations (most abortion clinics are already physically separate from the others for security reasons already) would be truly different businesses not just an accounting trick that no one but the left trusts.

There are an awful lot of comprehensive health clinics out there that are not associated with Planned Parenthood. Multiple graphic so this type (some national, some state, some local) have been appearing in news stories. All of the Republican bills require any money from defunding of Planned Parenthood clinics to be reallocated to these other health care facilities.


You get that that that isn't a map of clinics that provide the kind of financially accessible services specifically directed at low income people that Planned Parenthood provides, and that many of those low income people simply can't afford many of those other clinics services so they might as well not exist for them... right? Putting aside that looking at it as a national map you lose a lot of the fine detail about how geographically accessible many of those clinics are to low income neighborhoods with people living in them for whom lengthy trips to a clinic are in and of themselves a potential financial hardship?


There are dozens of these maps out there. This is the one I could find. And if Planned parenthood does split of the abortion business into it's own separate entity, those locations would also be eligible for federal funds. Actually they wouldn't lose the federal funds in the first place and PP knows it. As I said, PP care more about abortions than women's healthcare.
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Re: Sorry to say
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:41 pm

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biochem wrote:
gcomeau wrote:They already segregate them. The people going after them know this and just don;t give a crap... so pretending that just segregating them *more* would make the problem go away is naive.


Right now the segregation is just an accounting trick.


Explain in detail the "trick" part of the accounting, if you don't mind.

You get that that that isn't a map of clinics that provide the kind of financially accessible services specifically directed at low income people that Planned Parenthood provides, and that many of those low income people simply can't afford many of those other clinics services so they might as well not exist for them... right? Putting aside that looking at it as a national map you lose a lot of the fine detail about how geographically accessible many of those clinics are to low income neighborhoods with people living in them for whom lengthy trips to a clinic are in and of themselves a potential financial hardship?


There are dozens of these maps out there. This is the one I could find. And if Planned parenthood does split of the abortion business into it's own separate entity, those locations would also be eligible for federal funds.


They already are eligible. Despite the constant GOP attempts to undo that out of petty minded tantrum throwing.
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