Suspension of Disbelief.

JohnRoth wrote:

cthia wrote:Related to that, that you've just reminded me that I had problems with, is the MAlign had sleeper cells who didn't even know they were sleeping. Huh?

By the way, you're not a Manticoran, you're a Mesan and we are activating you now.

Huh is right.

What you're probably thinking of is this:

Mission of Honor said wrote:"You're right," Pritchart agreed. "On the other hand, let's not get too carried away. They may think they're superwomen, but I don't see why we should start thinking of them that way. I don't doubt they could do exactly what you're describing, Tom. In fact, that may well be what they did to the Old Republic. But however long they've been planning, they've still got to hold themselves to a manageable level of complexity. They've got to be able to coordinate everything, and we've had enough experience trying to coordinate the Republic to know how tall an order that can be even when we don't have to worry about keeping communications lines covert. Which has particular point in a case like this, I suspect, since I tend to doubt they could bury their sleepers quite as deeply as you've just suggested. There's got to be at least some contact somewhere if they aren't going to lose their assets simply because someone dies before she gets around to telling her son or daughter 'Oh, by the way. We're actually secret agents for the Mesan Alignment. Here's your secret decoder kit. Be ready to be contacted by the Galactic Evil Overlord on Frequency X with orders to betray the society you've been raised all your life to think of as your own.'"

Here's what David said:

On 2011-06-17 RFC wrote:The other thing I’ll say is that the Alignment has lost a LOT of its “sleeper” lines over the centuries. It always assumed that it would lose quite a few of them and based its plans on letting a line go (and having redundant backups in place) rather than risking exposure by trying to “salvage” or hang onto one when there was no suitable generational candidate or there was a communications failure.They have also resorted to assassination in more than one instance to tie off potential loose ends. In the case of the Renaissance Factor’s leadership cadres, the “sleepers” are not individual family lines but of groups of allied families, and “the onion” is replicated within those families. These planets have been settled for far shorter periods than most League systems, their elites were infiltrated by the Alignment early on, and clandestine Mesan support (economic, political, and lethal [where serious obstacles can be removed by a discreet assassination or two]) to help them along has been a major factor in how they have become and remained as locally powerful as they are. But it wasn’t until the current generation that any members of those families were let into the full strategy, and even then that knowledge was limited to very carefully selected, screened, and groomed individuals. The same thing holds true within the ranks of the militaries of the RF’s member star nations, and, in fact, MA influence within the military is largely restricted to a single one of the RF’s navies (which one is left to the reader, based on textev already presented <G>), which is the main reason Darius was necessary in the first place.

That's the passage! Thanks for the effort John.

Now when I reread it, I'm losing even more of my suspension cables! Gob smacked!

I don't know where to start. And reading RFCs comment only makes it worse!

I've always assumed a mass exodus of MAlign. The entire relocation appears to have been more of a mass mass exodus. There's the MAlign pulling a disappearing act. Then there's the sleeper agents and entire groups of families sleeping or awakened, disappearing. Plus! Right along with the mass exodus are mass homicides of unwakeable sleepers. And family members are supposed to just sit idly by while loved ones are murdered, without leaking the fear or anger to someone, anyone. And no one noticed mass disappearances? We discussed shortly ago, SWM and I, that forensics and technology makes it difficult to murder with what I called every day powerful run of the mill power tools that can probably pulverize bone as well. He disagreed stating that technology and forensics yatta yatta yatta...

Well how the hell did the MAlign kill and disappear so many? And probably sleeping on countless planets.

I love RFCs Honorverse and at the end of the day I don't question him. But SOMETIMES I blame it on the alcohol. His personal stash of Old Tilmans. Seems to work for him. Works for me.

Thanks again John.

.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:But what is it that you say I missed about Kuzak and crack, kzt?

Do you think that she made any good decisions during that fight? Remember how she and her chief of staff lay out the advantages that her force has over 2nd, and then she chooses to throw them all away? Then ties a giant ribbon on the fail by ordering that none of her ships can roll pods? When did she suddenly become totally incompetent? What would cause this? My guess is she and her chief of staff where passing a crack pipe back and forth.

I needed that laugh! Just in time too. I was just rereading. D'Orville is twiddling his thumbs not knowing what's coming over the wall.

Cause I am getting rained out here! Rather, rained in. And no wife. Just got married and she done gone missing.

Oh where oh where has my true love...


Rained in alone.

Don't fret. She just went back to the UK to help with two weddings. Our wedding has rubbed off on several other couples. Her sister is one. Fuerteventura will do that!

cthia wrote:Related to that, that you've just reminded me that I had problems with, is the MAlign had sleeper cells who didn't even know they were sleeping. Huh?

By the way, you're not a Manticoran, you're a Mesan and we are activating you now.

JohnRoth wrote:Huh is right.

What you're probably thinking of is this:

Mission of Honor said wrote:"You're right," Pritchart agreed. "On the other hand, let's not get too carried away. They may think they're superwomen, but I don't see why we should start thinking of them that way. I don't doubt they could do exactly what you're describing, Tom. In fact, that may well be what they did to the Old Republic. But however long they've been planning, they've still got to hold themselves to a manageable level of complexity. They've got to be able to coordinate everything, and we've had enough experience trying to coordinate the Republic to know how tall an order that can be even when we don't have to worry about keeping communications lines covert. Which has particular point in a case like this, I suspect, since I tend to doubt they could bury their sleepers quite as deeply as you've just suggested. There's got to be at least some contact somewhere if they aren't going to lose their assets simply because someone dies before she gets around to telling her son or daughter 'Oh, by the way. We're actually secret agents for the Mesan Alignment. Here's your secret decoder kit. Be ready to be contacted by the Galactic Evil Overlord on Frequency X with orders to betray the society you've been raised all your life to think of as your own.'"

Here's what David said:

On 2011-06-17 RFC wrote:The other thing I’ll say is that the Alignment has lost a LOT of its “sleeper” lines over the centuries. It always assumed that it would lose quite a few of them and based its plans on letting a line go (and having redundant backups in place) rather than risking exposure by trying to “salvage” or hang onto one when there was no suitable generational candidate or there was a communications failure.They have also resorted to assassination in more than one instance to tie off potential loose ends. In the case of the Renaissance Factor’s leadership cadres, the “sleepers” are not individual family lines but of groups of allied families, and “the onion” is replicated within those families. These planets have been settled for far shorter periods than most League systems, their elites were infiltrated by the Alignment early on, and clandestine Mesan support (economic, political, and lethal [where serious obstacles can be removed by a discreet assassination or two]) to help them along has been a major factor in how they have become and remained as locally powerful as they are. But it wasn’t until the current generation that any members of those families were let into the full strategy, and even then that knowledge was limited to very carefully selected, screened, and groomed individuals. The same thing holds true within the ranks of the militaries of the RF’s member star nations, and, in fact, MA influence within the military is largely restricted to a single one of the RF’s navies (which one is left to the reader, based on textev already presented <G>), which is the main reason Darius was necessary in the first place.

cthia wrote:That's the passage! Thanks for the effort John.

Now when I reread it, I'm losing even more of my suspension cables! Gob smacked!

I don't know where to start. And reading RFCs comment only makes it worse!

I've always assumed a mass exodus of MAlign. The entire relocation appears to have been more of a mass mass exodus. There's the MAlign pulling a disappearing act. Then there's the sleeper agents and entire groups of families sleeping or awakened, disappearing. Plus! Right along with the mass exodus are mass homicides of unwakeable sleepers. And family members are supposed to just sit idly by while loved ones are murdered, without leaking the fear or anger to someone, anyone. And no one noticed mass disappearances? We discussed shortly ago, SWM and I, that forensics and technology makes it difficult to murder with what I called every day powerful run of the mill power tools that can probably pulverize bone as well. He disagreed stating that technology and forensics yatta yatta yatta...

Well how the hell did the MAlign kill and disappear so many? And probably sleeping on countless planets.

I love RFCs Honorverse and at the end of the day I don't question him. But SOMETIMES I blame it on the alcohol. His personal stash of Old Tilmans. Seems to work for him. Works for me.

Thanks again Johnathan.

John, please. Not Jon, not Johnathan.

That's not the way I see it. The MAlign tries for subtle. They don't always manage it, but they do try - it's much easier to cover something up if nobody suspects there's anything to cover up.

As David says, they'll let an entire line go if there's nobody in the next generation to take over. When the old man (or old woman) dies, they may send someone out to vacuum the files and tidy up a loose end or two, but that's it. Subtle. Untraceable. Not wholesale slaughter. Nothing is more likely to get the police and newsies interested if a whole bunch of people in a prominent political or business family suddenly fall over dead. If Uncle Amos takes his secrets to the grave with him because his kids have been a bitter disappointment, well, that's the way they want it to be played.

I figure they probably seeded sleeper lines on a few dozen planets, maybe 50, about two centuries after founding Mesa, and lost the sleeper lines on most of them. "Sleeper" is probably a bad word - somebody always knew they were a member of the Mesan Alignment. That somebody was always grooming a successor or successors, unless there was nobody suitable.

I figure that Felix wasn't the only planet they scouted for their arsenal planet, and Mannerheim wasn't the only one they were looking at nearby planets for the arsenal. That's just the way it turned out.

Now, I can accept the notion of the outer layer of the Alignment on Mesa, because they've got Manpower and genetic slavery right under their nose, and the usual attitude among the first class citizens is even closer. I'm having a problem understanding what motivates the "sleeper" lines.

JohnRoth wrote:Now, I can accept the notion of the outer layer of the Alignment on Mesa, because they've got Manpower and genetic slavery right under their nose, and the usual attitude among the first class citizens is even closer. I'm having a problem understanding what motivates the "sleeper" lines.

Well, if they can tailor family lines for certain traits, they may tailor the "sleeper" ones for traits that will make them especially pliable for the Alignment. If there's any genetic disposition for a state of mind that appreciates being "in the know" and putting one over on people, it'd be something to put in there - and tweak fetuses with as often as need be. (Remember that it's already established that some genies have gametes that do not play fair with other gametes at fertilization and don't accept losing out a place at a certain gene locus, like Meyerdahl mods and heavy gravity adaptations.)

Presumably they would be keeping in quiet but regular contact. If they're helping the sleepers out in their professional and political careers, they're buying a certain loyalty, and they're leaving people less able to be comfortable feeling much loyalty to their own star system. If patriotism is just going to make you feel sick, you keep it within bounds.

They needn't make any mention of Mesa, much less this "Alignment", for centuries. They won't even be requiring anything of most sleeper families but keeping quiet about it and reaping rewards for generations. Meanwhile, they're keeping a close watch on people, and can quietly withdraw without having to kill anyone or sweep up files when the sleepers may not be willing to continue but aren't going to spill the beans. They won't have much in the way of beans to spill anyway, until recently.

In the last generation or two, they've likely been checking out who will be still game when they find out what they need to, and doing whatever they can to make Alignment goals seem more palatable to the sleepers. Where it won't be a near-certain sell, again, they can back off, or keep that sleeper in an outer layer where they don't need to know what would upset them. Where the near-certain sell turns out not to work, there someone may need to disappear. Heck, they may well have spent years encouraging people to take up extreme sports just so that they will have a plausible setup if/when they need to kill a sleeper having doubts; Yves Grosclaude's voluntary decisions about driving his aircar and vacationing set him up for an aircar accident, as an example of the situation they could make more likely.

cthia wrote:Related to that, that you've just reminded me that I had problems with, is the MAlign had sleeper cells who didn't even know they were sleeping. Huh?

By the way, you're not a Manticoran, you're a Mesan and we are activating you now.

JohnRoth wrote:Huh is right.

What you're probably thinking of is this:

Mission of Honor said wrote:"You're right," Pritchart agreed. "On the other hand, let's not get too carried away. They may think they're superwomen, but I don't see why we should start thinking of them that way. I don't doubt they could do exactly what you're describing, Tom. In fact, that may well be what they did to the Old Republic. But however long they've been planning, they've still got to hold themselves to a manageable level of complexity. They've got to be able to coordinate everything, and we've had enough experience trying to coordinate the Republic to know how tall an order that can be even when we don't have to worry about keeping communications lines covert. Which has particular point in a case like this, I suspect, since I tend to doubt they could bury their sleepers quite as deeply as you've just suggested. There's got to be at least some contact somewhere if they aren't going to lose their assets simply because someone dies before she gets around to telling her son or daughter 'Oh, by the way. We're actually secret agents for the Mesan Alignment. Here's your secret decoder kit. Be ready to be contacted by the Galactic Evil Overlord on Frequency X with orders to betray the society you've been raised all your life to think of as your own.'"

Here's what David said:

On 2011-06-17 RFC wrote:The other thing I’ll say is that the Alignment has lost a LOT of its “sleeper” lines over the centuries. It always assumed that it would lose quite a few of them and based its plans on letting a line go (and having redundant backups in place) rather than risking exposure by trying to “salvage” or hang onto one when there was no suitable generational candidate or there was a communications failure.They have also resorted to assassination in more than one instance to tie off potential loose ends. In the case of the Renaissance Factor’s leadership cadres, the “sleepers” are not individual family lines but of groups of allied families, and “the onion” is replicated within those families. These planets have been settled for far shorter periods than most League systems, their elites were infiltrated by the Alignment early on, and clandestine Mesan support (economic, political, and lethal [where serious obstacles can be removed by a discreet assassination or two]) to help them along has been a major factor in how they have become and remained as locally powerful as they are. But it wasn’t until the current generation that any members of those families were let into the full strategy, and even then that knowledge was limited to very carefully selected, screened, and groomed individuals. The same thing holds true within the ranks of the militaries of the RF’s member star nations, and, in fact, MA influence within the military is largely restricted to a single one of the RF’s navies (which one is left to the reader, based on textev already presented <G>), which is the main reason Darius was necessary in the first place.

cthia wrote:That's the passage! Thanks for the effort John.

Now when I reread it, I'm losing even more of my suspension cables! Gob smacked!

I don't know where to start. And reading RFCs comment only makes it worse!

I've always assumed a mass exodus of MAlign. The entire relocation appears to have been more of a mass mass exodus. There's the MAlign pulling a disappearing act. Then there's the sleeper agents and entire groups of families sleeping or awakened, disappearing. Plus! Right along with the mass exodus are mass homicides of unwakeable sleepers. And family members are supposed to just sit idly by while loved ones are murdered, without leaking the fear or anger to someone, anyone. And no one noticed mass disappearances? We discussed shortly ago, SWM and I, that forensics and technology makes it difficult to murder with what I called every day powerful run of the mill power tools that can probably pulverize bone as well. He disagreed stating that technology and forensics yatta yatta yatta...

Well how the hell did the MAlign kill and disappear so many? And probably sleeping on countless planets.

I love RFCs Honorverse and at the end of the day I don't question him. But SOMETIMES I blame it on the alcohol. His personal stash of Old Tilmans. Seems to work for him. Works for me.

Thanks again Johnathan.

JohnRoth wrote:John, please. Not Jon, not Johnathan.

That's not the way I see it. The MAlign tries for subtle. They don't always manage it, but they do try - it's much easier to cover something up if nobody suspects there's anything to cover up.

As David says, they'll let an entire line go if there's nobody in the next generation to take over. When the old man (or old woman) dies, they may send someone out to vacuum the files and tidy up a loose end or two, but that's it. Subtle. Untraceable. Not wholesale slaughter. Nothing is more likely to get the police and newsies interested if a whole bunch of people in a prominent political or business family suddenly fall over dead. If Uncle Amos takes his secrets to the grave with him because his kids have been a bitter disappointment, well, that's the way they want it to be played.

I figure they probably seeded sleeper lines on a few dozen planets, maybe 50, about two centuries after founding Mesa, and lost the sleeper lines on most of them. "Sleeper" is probably a bad word - somebody always knew they were a member of the Mesan Alignment. That somebody was always grooming a successor or successors, unless there was nobody suitable.

I figure that Felix wasn't the only planet they scouted for their arsenal planet, and Mannerheim wasn't the only one they were looking at nearby planets for the arsenal. That's just the way it turned out.

Now, I can accept the notion of the outer layer of the Alignment on Mesa, because they've got Manpower and genetic slavery right under their nose, and the usual attitude among the first class citizens is even closer. I'm having a problem understanding what motivates the "sleeper" lines.

Sorry for incorrect name. Edited it before you posted, because I dislike Cithia, Chita, Cynthia, etc. Believe me, I do understand. Perhaps you'll forgive me this one time as I have J----'s coming out my kazoo. 4 good friends named Johnathan, 1 more named Jonathan. 3 friends named John, 2 named Jon a Joana (actually pronounced Johnna) and then there are 2 coworkers, twins, Johnnie and Jon. And there are 3 more on this forum that I interact with. And I think the kid getting under my nieces skin at school is named John though he is called JJ. My boss' son is named John, but though he's only three I must remember it come social gatherings. Oh!, and an old classmate, Ghoanie (how's that for a spelling?) who keeps ringing me regarding the atrocity in China regarding the dogs. What gives?! What's difficult to believe in the Honorverse is that there are no Admiral Johns!

I still have my own problems with it. Uncle Amos won't have the option to take anything to his grave of natural causes unless he exits to Darius. If not, then he's a loose end with privileged information. If he does leave, what does he tell his family, friends, etc? Unless all are also sleepers who have accepted being wakened. If not, they die. The plan works fine on paper, but real life flies under the radar.

JeffEngel wrote:Well, if they can tailor family lines for certain traits, they may tailor the "sleeper" ones for traits that will make them especially pliable for the Alignment. If there's any genetic disposition for a state of mind that appreciates being "in the know" and putting one over on people, it'd be something to put in there - and tweak fetuses with as often as need be. (Remember that it's already established that some genies have gametes that do not play fair with other gametes at fertilization and don't accept losing out a place at a certain gene locus, like Meyerdahl mods and heavy gravity adaptations.)

Presumably they would be keeping in quiet but regular contact. If they're helping the sleepers out in their professional and political careers, they're buying a certain loyalty, and they're leaving people less able to be comfortable feeling much loyalty to their own star system. If patriotism is just going to make you feel sick, you keep it within bounds.

Also, at a first layer of secret revealing to the new members of the family that they benefited from genetic improvements could generate a generally positive feeling towards further genetic modifications and against the anti-"genie" prejudice.

That's not a bad place to start if your goal is to have sleepers who are willing to secretly move towards more widespread and drastic genetic modifications of humans.


And keep in mind that genetic slaves were just one means towards the goal. There's no reason to need the sleeper lines to be pro genetic slavery. (But eventually they do have to be pro forcible genetic improvements)

cthia wrote:I still have my own problems with it. Uncle Amos won't have the option to take anything to his grave of natural causes unless he exits to Darius. If not, then he's a loose end with privileged information. If he does leave, what does he tell his family, friends, etc? Unless all are also sleepers who have accepted being wakened. If not, they die. The plan works fine on paper, but real life flies under the radar.

I think you misunderstood. Yes, the MAlign pulled those deep within the onion off of Mesa. But the sleeper lines in various proto-RF worlds, and the Star Line people scattered in positions of power throughout the League aren't getting called in or eliminated. They're needed right where they are - and there aren't any clues on Mesa (or at least aren't supposed to be) to point to them.
So 'Uncle Amos' is just fine sitting on Mannerheim keeping an eye on the nieces and nephews and musing about which will be good candidates to bring deeper into the secret and which should be kept in the dark.

cthia wrote:I still have my own problems with it. Uncle Amos won't have the option to take anything to his grave of natural causes unless he exits to Darius. If not, then he's a loose end with privileged information. If he does leave, what does he tell his family, friends, etc? Unless all are also sleepers who have accepted being wakened. If not, they die. The plan works fine on paper, but real life flies under the radar.

I think you missed two points: there are no "sleepers" that can be "wakened." People are brought as far into the local version of the "onion" as is deemed prudent, and then they stay there.

The other point is that only the current generation knows the full plan. And who's to say they actually know anything more than the Renaissance Factor part of it and the general idea that the long-term goal is genetic uplift?

Jonathan_S wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Well, if they can tailor family lines for certain traits, they may tailor the "sleeper" ones for traits that will make them especially pliable for the Alignment. If there's any genetic disposition for a state of mind that appreciates being "in the know" and putting one over on people, it'd be something to put in there - and tweak fetuses with as often as need be. (Remember that it's already established that some genies have gametes that do not play fair with other gametes at fertilization and don't accept losing out a place at a certain gene locus, like Meyerdahl mods and heavy gravity adaptations.)

Presumably they would be keeping in quiet but regular contact. If they're helping the sleepers out in their professional and political careers, they're buying a certain loyalty, and they're leaving people less able to be comfortable feeling much loyalty to their own star system. If patriotism is just going to make you feel sick, you keep it within bounds.

Also, at a first layer of secret revealing to the new members of the family that they benefited from genetic improvements could generate a generally positive feeling towards further genetic modifications and against the anti-"genie" prejudice.

That's not a bad place to start if your goal is to have sleepers who are willing to secretly move towards more widespread and drastic genetic modifications of humans.


And keep in mind that genetic slaves were just one means towards the goal. There's no reason to need the sleeper lines to be pro genetic slavery. (But eventually they do have to be pro forcible genetic improvements)

Two points here, both of which have to do with the Phase 3 (genetic improvement) strategy.

on 2011-06-06 Duckk (speaking for RFC) wrote:I think you're underestimating just how gradual the Alignment plans to introduce their eugenics program. Consider how prolong is considered (for lack of better term) a universal right, even though it has only existed for roughly a hundred years. So the Alignment is going to start with little things, like screening for genetic disorders and quiet little tweaks. Something no one would object to, and agree that it's good to have. The idea is to change galactic opinion away from Beowulf's idea that genetic tinkering is evil, to something more receptive. Gradual changes, over decades, even centuries, in galactic opinion. With the Alignment controlling the media, they can subtly shape the discussion (one might say propaganda) so that over time the Alignment's view is the universal one, all while slowly introducing more and more of their eugenics program.

Unless you consider advertising as force, and I'm open to argument in that direction, they're not proposing to use force.

Given that, I suspect that Darius is also a throwaway, since any planet associated with the Alignment that has genetic slavery, no matter how well they're being treated, will be a deal-breaker.

What the Alignment is using, rather than genetic slaves, is "specialty lines." We've seen several of them. Albrecht Detweiller's and Aldona Anismovna's bodyguards are from one of those lines, as well as the agent (forgotten his name) in Neue Rostock. The latter, while he's "legally" a seccie, is being treated as a full partner by the security apparatus. Well, almost full - he was bitching about some residual stuff at one point.

JohnRoth wrote:The other point is that only the current generation knows the full plan. And who's to say they actually know anything more than the Renaissance Factor part of it and the general idea that the long-term goal is genetic uplift?

Not all of them even need to know about the genetic uplift goal. Oh, it'd be bad if they were, any of them, inclined to make moves that would be detrimental to that, but sheer neutrality or disinterest re genetic uplift will do for now.

It looks like some RF leadership probably knows more than they need to for that role. It seems like they are genuine leaders within the Alignment as such.

I wonder if there isn't an outer layer of systems prepared for assimilation into the RF, with less-informed sleeper agents in critical positions, or as-informed sleeper agents working as advisers to naive political or opinion leaders. There may also be star systems prepped to work as threats to scare people into the RF, and places like the Maya Sector where the Alignment may be helping people do things of their own, untouched volition, that happen to play into the Alignment's plans.

In many, many places, all the Alignment needs is a little influence to help the avalanche along, and channel it into the directions it needs. The League is falling apart; its claim to be the enlightened leader of humanity is a threadbare sham; the wolves are bringing down the buffalo. The Alignment has never aspired to more positive control than is necessary at this stage. Unfortunately, the slightest room for things to go wrong - what such an ambitious plan on such (relatively) limited resources demanded - got Cachat and Zilwicki in it.

Oops.

When hiding people in plain sight it best if you hide the forest in an even bigger forest. What I mean all of the left behind MAlign personnel could have been concentrated in a few of Mendels towers and most of them may have been killed during Houdini. E.g. if you look at where personnel and families of the various U.S. intelligence agencies live in the D.C. area the tend to live in the same housing areas or town's. In a couple of areas of Williamsburg VA upwards of 70% of the households have at least one member working for or retired from the CIA's training facility(The Farm). It is the same for Quantico VA and Ft Meade MD. Another example is there is an area of Staten Island NY that in which nearly 80% of the population is a member of the NYPD or NYFD.