Should Duchairn Be Executed After The War?

Ed130 The Vanguard wrote:No. The worst he's done is ensure the Church remains solvent. Charis could argue that it was the Go4 that started this entire mess and they would be correct but the real 'war crimes' such as the Sword attacks in Siddarmark are all Clynthans brainchild.

By all accounts Duchairn would be better off out of all the current Temples leadership, between his charity works and is disapproval of the Punishment by not attending the executions he can easily state "I only stayed to lessen the damage," which he stated was his intention.

Yep, Duchairn enables Clyntahn and the Jihad by keeping the COGA financially solvent. That is called being an accessory to the crime.

In addition to that, we have no indication that he is less than committed to the Jihad however he might decry Clyntahn's tactics and brutality.

Don

n7axw wrote:Yep, Duchairn enables Clyntahn and the Jihad by keeping the COGA financially solvent. That is called being an accessory to the crime.

In addition to that, we have no indication that he is less than committed to the Jihad however he might decry Clyntahn's tactics and brutality.

Don

There you go again, saying succinctly in two paragraphs what took me an entire column to explain!

Some of us can cut to the core of an issue, and some of us tend to blab...

Ed130 The Vanguard wrote:No. The worst he's done is ensure the Church remains solvent. Charis could argue that it was the Go4 that started this entire mess and they would be correct but the real 'war crimes' such as the Sword attacks in Siddarmark are all Clynthans brainchild.

By all accounts Duchairn would be better off out of all the current Temples leadership, between his charity works and is disapproval of the Punishment by not attending the executions he can easily state "I only stayed to lessen the damage," which he stated was his intention.

While that may be indeed the worst thing overall, its kinda hard to prosecute. Its a rather nebulous evil deed, impossible to quantify.

Whats really easy to prosecute on the other hand is that he's the guy who ordered the concentration camp inhabitants worked to death to repair the canal network.

IMHO Duchairn is hardly any better than Clynthan.
A rope is too good for such a vicious hypocrit.

HamsterDesTodes wrote:

Ed130 The Vanguard wrote:No. The worst he's done is ensure the Church remains solvent. Charis could argue that it was the Go4 that started this entire mess and they would be correct but the real 'war crimes' such as the Sword attacks in Siddarmark are all Clynthans brainchild.

By all accounts Duchairn would be better off out of all the current Temples leadership, between his charity works and is disapproval of the Punishment by not attending the executions he can easily state "I only stayed to lessen the damage," which he stated was his intention.

While that may be indeed the worst thing overall, its kinda hard to prosecute. Its a rather nebulous evil deed, impossible to quantify.

Whats really easy to prosecute on the other hand is that he's the guy who ordered the concentration camp inhabitants worked to death to repair the canal network.

IMHO Duchairn is hardly any better than Clynthan.
A rope is too good for such a vicious hypocrit.

[CITATION NEEDED]

The idea for using slave labour came from one Father Avary Pygain, secretary to Archbishop Arthyn Zagyrsk. And even he expressed distaste at it, eventually reasoning that the 'heretics' would be better off working for them rather than remaining at the Inquisition holding camp. (Sept 896, Ch VI, LAMA)

Seeing as how Duchain's current actions of silently opposing Clynthan's actions short of some fruitless suicide bid that would acomplish little apart from his death and the torture and death of all his family and loved ones isn't raising support, lets go with the realpolitik angle.

By now Duchain has replaced The Circle's former position as the 'gentle face' of the Mother Church amongst the poor of Zion and those who care for them. What do you think they will do if Charis kills him? (Never mind the fact that having hostages at the mercy of the Inquisition is seen as a valid excuse, see Thirsk for more details.) It will destroy any trace of reputation and moral authority the CoC has in Zion as it will come out in his trial the various ways he voiced is dissatisfaction against Clynthan's heavy hand, not to mention character witness such as Father Zytan Kwill form the Hospice.

And there will be a trial, because the 'shoot on sight' rule only applies to Inquisitors, which Duchain is not. So when all this comes to light the Empire literally can't kill him unless they want to be seen as another Clynthan who takes vengeance before all else by the lower ranking clergy.

So in short executing Duchain would be the wrong move, morally (he tried to mitigate the damage) and politically (removing the one bright side of the Church isn't going to gain them friends in Zion, especially among the remaining reformist minded Bedardist/Pasqualeist members).

The 4 of them conspired to start the war, therefore they are all equally guilty of everything that has occurred since, thus they should all be executed.

What crime, Don? Ensuring the solvency of God's church is his legal responsibility. Although Charis and Siddermark might demand reparations and even the lives of the CoGA leadership as conditions of surrender terms or a treaty, the CoGA with the exception of Clyntahn likely acted within the scope of the law. They were the law. Magwair and Trainyr might be guilty of corruption, we don't know for sure. Even so does CoGA law prescribe the death penalty for that crime?

Even if those three are guilty of crimes, Duchairn is likely not guilty of any. Trying him in a kangaroo court serves neither justice nor Charisian goals.

n7axw wrote:

Ed130 The Vanguard wrote:No. The worst he's done is ensure the Church remains solvent. Charis could argue that it was the Go4 that started this entire mess and they would be correct but the real 'war crimes' such as the Sword attacks in Siddarmark are all Clynthans brainchild.

By all accounts Duchairn would be better off out of all the current Temples leadership, between his charity works and is disapproval of the Punishment by not attending the executions he can easily state "I only stayed to lessen the damage," which he stated was his intention.

Yep, Duchairn enables Clyntahn and the Jihad by keeping the COGA financially solvent. That is called being an accessory to the crime.

In addition to that, we have no indication that he is less than committed to the Jihad however he might decry Clyntahn's tactics and brutality.

Don

PeterZ wrote:What crime, Don? Ensuring the solvency of God's church is his legal responsibility. Although Charis and Siddermark might demand reparations and even the lives of the CoGA leadership as conditions of surrender terms or a treaty, the CoGA with the exception of Clyntahn likely acted within the scope of the law. They were the law. Magwair and Trainyr might be guilty of corruption, we don't know for sure. Even so does CoGA law prescribe the death penalty for that crime?

I am not advocating the death penalty for Duchairn, Peter. But I do believe that there should be some accountability, both for his role in starting the war and and his role in prosecuting the Jihad.

I know he has developed as a sympathetic character, but in a way that is rather the point, isn't it? Even well meanimg people can become involved in things that are dreadfully wrong with all the best intentions in the world. Justice cannot be applied without nuance and I'm perfectly willing to see nuance applied in Duchairn's case. But nuance is not a get out of jail free card.

Don

n7axw wrote:
I am not advocating the death penalty for Duchairn, Peter. But I do believe that there should be some accountability, both for his role in starting the war and and his role in prosecuting the Jihad.

I know he has developed as a sympathetic character, but in a way that is rather the point, isn't it? Even well meanimg people can become involved in things that are dreadfully wrong with all the best intentions in the world. Justice cannot be applied without nuance and I'm perfectly willing to see nuance applied in Duchairn's case. But nuance is not a get out of jail free card.

Don

I am not advocating a get out of jail free card. I advocate punishment tailored to make him suffer but still ameliorate an awful situation. Duchairn's faith is rejuvenated, Don. I realize the good guys likely don't know this, yet. Still, everything about serving in the G4, the power and authority, is a constant reminder of how he failed God. His current activities is his penance. His planning to gut Clyntahn is his penance. Both activities eat away at his soul, yet he does them none the less. Killing him or taking him away from the constant reminders of his failure is a blessing for him.

Justice in Duchairn's place means utilizing him in a position where he can make amends and keep the loyalists from aggravating the post CoGA situation worse than it needs to be. Killing him is a waste. He likely broke no laws he was under the jurisdiction of, but justice demands restitution. Let Duchairn pay his restitution with the remainder of his life in service of those he and his partners misled.

Ed130 The Vanguard wrote:

HamsterDesTodes wrote:
While that may be indeed the worst thing overall, its kinda hard to prosecute. Its a rather nebulous evil deed, impossible to quantify.

Whats really easy to prosecute on the other hand is that he's the guy who ordered the concentration camp inhabitants worked to death to repair the canal network.

IMHO Duchairn is hardly any better than Clynthan.
A rope is too good for such a vicious hypocrit.

[CITATION NEEDED]

The idea for using slave labour came from one Father Avary Pygain, secretary to Archbishop Arthyn Zagyrsk. And even he expressed distaste at it, eventually reasoning that the 'heretics' would be better off working for them rather than remaining at the Inquisition holding camp. (Sept 896, Ch VI, LAMA)

Seeing as how Duchain's current actions of silently opposing Clynthan's actions short of some fruitless suicide bid that would acomplish little apart from his death and the torture and death of all his family and loved ones isn't raising support, lets go with the realpolitik angle.

By now Duchain has replaced The Circle's former position as the 'gentle face' of the Mother Church amongst the poor of Zion and those who care for them. What do you think they will do if Charis kills him? (Never mind the fact that having hostages at the mercy of the Inquisition is seen as a valid excuse, see Thirsk for more details.) It will destroy any trace of reputation and moral authority the CoC has in Zion as it will come out in his trial the various ways he voiced is dissatisfaction against Clynthan's heavy hand, not to mention character witness such as Father Zytan Kwill form the Hospice.

And there will be a trial, because the 'shoot on sight' rule only applies to Inquisitors, which Duchain is not. So when all this comes to light the Empire literally can't kill him unless they want to be seen as another Clynthan who takes vengeance before all else by the lower ranking clergy.

So in short executing Duchain would be the wrong move, morally (he tried to mitigate the damage) and politically (removing the one bright side of the Church isn't going to gain them friends in Zion, especially among the remaining reformist minded Bedardist/Pasqualeist members).

Giving someone who has conspired to commit murder a complete pass is not Justice. He has shown remorse, and has done a lot of good. This does not change that he WAS at one point corrupt and helped to create the issue at hand.

This is where moral arguments get tricky. If life is value beyond measure, how do you justify not taking his as payment for those he has helped to cost?

If it is not, how do you not justify taking his as payment for those he has cost?

(They two question have different semantic meanings if you read carefully)

Those he has helped have a different view of the man, than those he has not. Those he has not are a larger group and happen to be on track to have all the guns.

Th best that can be hoped for is an equitable and just trial where all of the evidence is presented. I typically tell everyone that you know it was the correct solution when it satisfies NO ONE.

In other words - I expect that he will be tried, I expect that he will be convicted of some crimes. I do not expect that he will be executed, unless he is executed by the CoGA.

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:
I am not advocating the death penalty for Duchairn, Peter. But I do believe that there should be some accountability, both for his role in starting the war and and his role in prosecuting the Jihad.

I know he has developed as a sympathetic character, but in a way that is rather the point, isn't it? Even well meanimg people can become involved in things that are dreadfully wrong with all the best intentions in the world. Justice cannot be applied without nuance and I'm perfectly willing to see nuance applied in Duchairn's case. But nuance is not a get out of jail free card.

Don

I am not advocating a get out of jail free card. I advocate punishment tailored to make him suffer but still ameliorate an awful situation. Duchairn's faith is rejuvenated, Don. I realize the good guys likely don't know this, yet. Still, everything about serving in the G4, the power and authority, is a constant reminder of how he failed God. His current activities is his penance. His planning to gut Clyntahn is his penance. Both activities eat away at his soul, yet he does them none the less. Killing him or taking him away from the constant reminders of his failure is a blessing for him.

Justice in Duchairn's place means utilizing him in a position where he can make amends and keep the loyalists from aggravating the post CoGA situation worse than it needs to be. Killing him is a waste. He likely broke no laws he was under the jurisdiction of, but justice demands restitution. Let Duchairn pay his restitution with the remainder of his life in service of those he and his partners misled.

I think there should be a jail term. Perhaps not a lengthy one, but a jail term. Then your idea could be implemented.

Don