Should Duchairn Be Executed After The War?

Xuan-Wu wrote:I would love to see him commited to community service (for life).

He proved to repentence. And truly care for the needfull.

Honestly, I see him doing that even if he gets acquitted. Something I could see happening is him getting acquitted, then resigning his position as a Vicar and retiring to a monastery in Siddermark to try to repair some of the damage done by the war. Of course if that happens, I also see him being assassinated by someone who lost their family during the Sword of Scheuler. A tragic end to be sure, but also a fitting one.

Starsaber wrote:

Xuan-Wu wrote:I would love to see him commited to community service (for life).

He proved to repentence. And truly care for the needfull.

Honestly, I see him doing that even if he gets acquitted. Something I could see happening is him getting acquitted, then resigning his position as a Vicar and retiring to a monastery in Siddermark to try to repair some of the damage done by the war. Of course if that happens, I also see him being assassinated by someone who lost their family during the Sword of Scheuler. A tragic end to be sure, but also a fitting one.

I agree with much of what Rose said and don't believe he shoud be convicted of a capital crime. But when push comes to shove, when all is out in the open, I can't see him getting off either. He was simply too deeply involved in what happened for that.

Don

Why does everyone think execution is the worst punishment for both Clyntahn and Duchairn?

Clyntahn should have his tongue cut out and banished to a Harchong mountain monastery plucking weeds.

Rohbair should be made to run the rump CoGA. That position would be torture for him as it will permanently separate him from serving God's children directly.

Starsaber wrote:

Xuan-Wu wrote:I would love to see him commited to community service (for life).

He proved to repentence. And truly care for the needfull.

Honestly, I see him doing that even if he gets acquitted. Something I could see happening is him getting acquitted, then resigning his position as a Vicar and retiring to a monastery in Siddermark to try to repair some of the damage done by the war. Of course if that happens, I also see him being assassinated by someone who lost their family during the Sword of Scheuler. A tragic end to be sure, but also a fitting one.

Starsaber wrote:

Xuan-Wu wrote:I would love to see him commited to community service (for life).

He proved to repentence. And truly care for the needfull.

Honestly, I see him doing that even if he gets acquitted. Something I could see happening is him getting acquitted, then resigning his position as a Vicar and retiring to a monastery in Siddermark to try to repair some of the damage done by the war. Of course if that happens, I also see him being assassinated by someone who lost their family during the Sword of Scheuler. A tragic end to be sure, but also a fitting one.

RFC has frequently pointed out that we as readers know more than the characters do. At this point the allies have no idea of Duchairn's reborn faith, unless Merlin dares to plant a SNARC on or near Duchairn when he goes to Zion - which is unlikely, except perhaps in St. Kylmahns. So in a Nuremberg style trial, the local community priests would need to testify of all the good that Duchairn has done for the poor in the past few years.

Keep in mind, Duchairn cut a deal with Clyntahn that he wouldn't oppose him if he were allowed to do his "hearts and minds" good deeds. Yes, he's done a great deal of good for the poor residents of Zion. However, he's also been the brains behind the entire logistics chain of the jihad, along with repairing the canals, encouraging the development of new weapons, and especially financing the war. Without him, the jihad would have fallen apart already. Clyntahn is the evil face of it, but Duchairn is the man behind the scenes who makes it all possible, and he voted for the Jihad just like every other member of the Go4.

So given his enthusiastic support for murdering the citizens of Siddarmark and the EoC, exactly why should he be spared the death penalty? He knows that a great deal of what Clyntahn does is immoral, yet he makes Clyntahn's goals possible. (Or at least drags out the agony and bloodshed of the Jihad.)

I agree that he's a man desperately trying to keep his head above water while swimming in a pool full of krakens, but if a man is judged by his deeds, the countless thousands who died because of his efforts to enable the Jihad dwarf those he saved through his food and shelter programs for the faithful in Zion and NW Siddarmark. How much of that food makes its way to the death camps?

Sending him to a monastery would be the moral and perhaps the most "fair" punishment he could receive, but he'll be judged for his entire body of work - both good and evil, and "good" would be defined by the allies. His works got countless thousands of them killed, fed and armed the troops and inquisitors of the Jihad, and decreed the destruction of Charis without warning or explanation of how it had violated the tenets of the Writ, and ultimately killed its king.

If evil is counted only be the number of deaths a member of the Go4 caused or made possible, Duchairn is the most evil of them all from the allied viewpoint, even though deep down he's the only decent human being among that group of foul sewage.

Ironic, don't you think?

Sorry, Mac but Clyntahn and Duchairn were right from the beginning. Charis WAS guilty of trying to break the CoGA. Merlin is a demon as defined by the Writ.

The difference between the two is that Clyntahn didn't care if Charis was guilty. He wanted to make an example of Charis and her citizens. Duchairn wanted only to re-establish the CoGA's divinely ordained primacy on Safehold. Within the parameters of what those two knew to be true, Charis is responsible for all the ensuing deaths. This is true because Charis wanted to subvert the percieved divinely inspred authority on Safehold.

The only way Charis couldn't be guilty is if The Truth was known. That the CoGA was a lie and their authority is not legitimate. By Challenging the CoGA's rightful authority after defeating the KotTL armada, the began the chain of events leading all these deaths.

Even so, they could do no other. That's why Merlin feels guilty. He was responsible for the events that led to all these deaths. He had no choice to begin freeing humanity from Langehorn's chains.

roseandheather wrote:

Tararoys wrote:Let's say Charis wins. They capture the Temple and the group of four, and start to do some Nurenberg trial things. Should Duchairn hang with the rest?

As much as I love his character development, DuChairn is clearly guilty of attempted mass murder with the original attack on Charis. I don't think anything he has done since can compensate for that, especially in the eyes of Charis. In all honestly, I think DuChairn might agree with me.

Now I'm imagining a truly heart-wrenching scene where it's Duchairn's turn to face the hangman's noose. Imagine the contrast between how, say, Clyntahn or Rayno would face it, and contrast that with how Duchairn would face it. I, as a reader, don't want him to die because I like the person he's becoming too much, but wouldn't it be justice if they hang him?

RFC has written two types of execution scenes: unjust executions, where the victim is clearly innocent, and executions where you are not only satisfied that justice is done, but rooting for the evil inquisitor/traitor to die. It would be an interesting twist to see a fellow like DuChairn get executed, because most of us would get to feel like Sharlyan did when she sentenced the Corisandian traitors to die. She didn't like it, not one little bit.

LET ME TELL YOU WHY YOU ARE WRONG.

*cough* Sorry. I appear to have added Duchairn to my list of "adopted RFC characters whom I will defend viciously and to the death".

Duchairn is no more guilty of mass murder than Nahrmahn or Sharleyan. Yes, he helped plan the initial attack that ended with Darcos Sound, but, pray tell, what other choice did he have? To his immense credit, he found his conscience and has been doing his best to obey it ever since. He can't take down Clyntahn, any more than Theisman could take down Pierre or Ransom back in the Honorverse. That poor man is walking a tightrope with mines attached to it. He isn't the one ordering the Punishment on innocent civilians. He isn't the one on a vindictive jihad dedicated to wiping out Charis and all its allies. He isn't the one deluding himself that his cause is God's. And he isn't throwing himself away on some heroic (and heroically stupid) act of defiance when he knows he can do much more good right where he is.

That man is a brainwashing victim. He is doing as well as he possibly can without exposure to the truth, helping people instead of hurting them wherever possible - that is not someone who deserves execution. What he deserves is a fighting chance to turn his life around. What use would killing him do? Quite aside from my own stance on the death penalty (don't ask me what it is or we'll be here all night), to put him in the same category as Zhaspahr Clyntahn is absurd and just plain wrong. His courage alone has earned him that; give him one chance to strike back, to make his wrongs right, and I honestly believe he will take it.

#IBelieveInRhobairDuchairn

Roseandheather, have I ever told you how much I adore reading your posts? Your enthusiasm is infectious, and you are one of the few 'voices' on the internet that I regularly read where I don't 'hear' sarcasm or double meanings. I always 'hear' you as wonderfully sincere, even when you are yelling at me in all caps. (Can you please write a romance novel someday? With how enthusiastically you ship characters, I think you'd be good at it.)

I should explain that one of my personal literature fetishes is people staring death in the face and pulling off some last act of grace. Hopeless martyrdom, last stands, stiff-upper-lip stuff, like Dynnys's execution, or Gwyllym Manthyr's mercy kill of Lancer Svarsman, or King Haraald...all of that turns me up sweet. Oddly enough, I would not find a scene where Clyntahn is subject to the punishment of Schueler to be nearly as satisfying to read, because it!s missing the whole 'martyr/meaningful death' aspect.

So when I imagine a scene where DuChairn faces the noose, the fact that he can be interpreted as a martyr to brainwashing...plays to my particular tastes, let us say. Yes, I read way too many martyr tales as a child....especially the one about the Cambrige Martyrs,, where one martyr said to the other, " be of cheer, Mr. Ridley, and play the man, and I trust that today we shall light such a candle in all of England that it shall never burn out".

So yes, I'm proposing Duchairn's execution because I think he'd make a truly badass martyr. I think he'd do or say or even just think something deathless and noble...so you'd definitely want to keep your beloved Rohbair out of my reach...cuz I would definitely not give him a fair trial.

With that in mind, here are my arguments for the prosecution:
1. He's enabling Clyntahn. He is a supremely good beaureucrat, and his fiscal policy is the reason why the COGA hasn't collapsed yet. He's in the same position as Albert Speer, the "Good Nazi," the one who went through a spiritual journey much like Rohbair's...and who some argue is responsible for holding together the Reich two years longer than it would have lasted without him.
2. He assented to an unprovoked attack on Charis as a knight of the temple lands.
3. He helped engineer the judicial murder of Eryk Dynnys, whom he knew was innocent of every crime he was accused of, as a matter of political expediency.

And if you want my opinion on the death penalty, it's that we should reserve it for fictional characters.

#DuchairnTheMartyr! #hangDuchairn!

There's going to be a lot of rebuilding needed after the war. It will take organization, compassion, and strategic thinking along with a mastery of detail.

The ideal answer might be to put him through a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Spare his life on condition that he provide a full confession and testify against the other members of the Go4, and that he swear service to the rebuilding effort for the remainder of his natural life.

He could wind up as an example of the justice of the Empire and an example of faith calling someone to good works.

All this assumes that he lives to the end of the war. Given a window of opportunity I think he'd try what Stauffenberg tried, and get the same results.

Expert snuggler wrote:There's going to be a lot of rebuilding needed after the war. It will take organization, compassion, and strategic thinking along with a mastery of detail.

The ideal answer might be to put him through a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Spare his life on condition that he provide a full confession and testify against the other members of the Go4, and that he swear service to the rebuilding effort for the remainder of his natural life.

He could wind up as an example of the justice of the Empire and an example of faith calling someone to good works.

All this assumes that he lives to the end of the war. Given a window of opportunity I think he'd try what Stauffenberg tried, and get the same results.

I'm asking this out of pure curiosity, and not to be confrontational, but exactly what do you want to put Duchairn in charge of rebuilding? Not the CoGA I presume, since the last thing the allies would want is a competent leader who although he personally wouldn't, he could declare jihad against them yet again. Put some Harchongese nobleman in charge of the CoGA and watch the whole thing fall apart!

I'm guessing that you mean rebuilding all the damage caused in Siddarmark, which if the CoGA wasn't broke, a negotiated settlement would include reparations for the survivors of the death camps, those who had their property destroyed by armies or seized by TLs, etc. An admission of guilt and remorse would be nice as well, and Duchairn is the only one of the Go4 who would actually make such an admission. The only solution for the other three is a noose. (Clyntahn gets impaled on a midshipman's dirk or a longsword, since he may be too fat for Mab to use a dirk!)

By no means should Duchairn be given a position of authority in the new leadership of the CoGA - let him build houses with his own two hands as part of Siddarmark's "Habitat for Humanity" (paid for by the CoGA) until he's too old to lift a hammer, then let him coordinate the program. He's done his damage, now let him atone for it in a way that his uncalloused hands and undeveloped muscles will decry, out in the heat of summer and the chill of spring and autumn - and the biting cold while finishing the insides of houses during the winter.

Let him pass his days doing unpleasant physical labor out in the elements rather than spending the remaining years of his life in a peaceful monastery. He'll die sooner and suffer a great deal more, which he most certainly deserves!

A penance, then? I like it. It makes more sense than punishment. It's also restorative justice. It's also forcing him to see the consequences of his previous work.

>I'm guessing that you mean rebuilding all the damage caused in Siddarmark

That's one example. There will be many more by the end of the war. One way or another, there will be a need for some kind of Marshall Plan. Very few people would be qualified to implement it competently. If you require honesty as well, the candidate pool gets tiny. Having Duchairn do it, in a plain black cassock and for subsistence pay, would be good restorative justice.

If he survives Clyntahn and then the angry mobs after the war, it will be a miracle that should be honored by making use of his miraculously spared life rather than ending it.

PeterZ wrote:Sorry, Mac but Clyntahn and Duchairn were right from the beginning. Charis WAS guilty of trying to break the CoGA. Merlin is a demon as defined by the Writ.

The difference between the two is that Clyntahn didn't care if Charis was guilty. He wanted to make an example of Charis and her citizens. Duchairn wanted only to re-establish the CoGA's divinely ordained primacy on Safehold. Within the parameters of what those two knew to be true, Charis is responsible for all the ensuing deaths. This is true because Charis wanted to subvert the percieved divinely inspred authority on Safehold.

The only way Charis couldn't be guilty is if The Truth was known. That the CoGA was a lie and their authority is not legitimate. By Challenging the CoGA's rightful authority after defeating the KotTL armada, the began the chain of events leading all these deaths.

Even so, they could do no other. That's why Merlin feels guilty. He was responsible for the events that led to all these deaths. He had no choice to begin freeing humanity from Langehorn's chains.

I suppose this is an area where we're going to have to disagree. Merlin's initial diagnosis of the probable future of Charis was that Haarahld might live to pass the kingdom to Cayleb, but Cayleb (and Charis) wouldn't survive to pass it on to his son. So the storm was coming, and Merlin did speed it up a bit - but even Dynnys agreed that none of the new innovations developed in Charis after Merlin's arrival came close to violating the Proscriptions. It was Clyntahn's hand-picked secretary/inquisitor who warped all reality and accused Dynnys of lying and Charis of basically defying the Church that enabled Clyntahn to get the other members of the Go4 to give Charis to the death penalty.

At that point Charis hadn't done anything that a crackdown by the Inquisition couldn't have squelched. Decreeing the death of an entire nation because Clyntahn was overly paranoid was a massive overreaction, and would have led to similar attacks on Emerald, Chisholm, and possibly Corisande eventually. At the very least some high-placed vicars were going to become Dukes and Earls in what was left of Charis, where they'd rape the populace financially the same way the fake heir of Hanth did before the populace drove him out. (Except there would be no driving out the new rulers of what had been Charis.)

Had the attack on Charis succeeded, the other out-islands would have fallen all over themselves to express their devotion to the CoGA and to demonstrate how doctrinally sound their clergy were. But the inherent paranoia Clyntahn felt for any kingdom too far away to threaten with armies, or too powerful to attack, such as Siddarmark before the SoS, would have led him to his "final solution" over and over until every nation on Safehold bowed to his authority and was terrified of attracting his ire.

Merlin wasn't the problem, Clyntahn and the corrupt vicarate that allowed the facade that the KotTL and not the CoGA were behind the attack to destroy Charis were the problem. Merlin was the inoculation that enabled Charis to survive, which kicked off the Jihad. He didn't start it - Clyntahn did! Even if Merlin had never set foot in Charis, Clyntahn would have found an excuse to destroy it. So despite our favorite PICA's anguish and self-loathing, Merlin is no more responsible for the Jihad than he's responsible for winter rolling around every October or November. It was inevitable once Charis refused to roll over and die.