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MAlign Tradecraft

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Re: MAlign Tradecraft
Post by kzt   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:31 pm

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It's much bigger. Like 64x. I think it was x4 in every dimension compared to a 40 foot ISO container.
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Re: MAlign Tradecraft
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:14 pm

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yeah I'd checked what existing shipping containers were (40 footers are only about 12m long, by 2 by 2 give or take).


Or wait, Norbrandt only got containers that were around 30 feet wasn't it? So about the same size of current containers because that was all her underperforming helicopters could handle. Well, that and they didn't know they'd get free anti-grav harnesses built in to help unload and move them.
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Re: MAlign Tradecraft
Post by Theemile   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:36 pm

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Kizarvexis wrote:
I can agree with this.

There is also the fact that the MAlign wants to pin Firebrand's activities on the Manties. Firebrand is supposed to be pretty smart, so I would think he would know how ruthless the Mesan people he is working for are and ditch at some point so that a dead Manty spy named Firebrand doesn't popup to bring some physical evidence to the tale to link all the rebel movements to the evil Manties who want to overthrow the just and fair Solarian League.


Don't forget "wheels within wheels" - Harahap was a Solarian Gendarm - and used that codename while a gendarme. Even though he's saying he's a Manty - he has been saying he's a Manty, Havenite, Andie, or Erewhonese for years. If someone does trace it back to him and blow his cover, they're going to find a Solarian Counter-terrorist guy whose job it was to root out the same terrorists he meeting with now - pretending to be, well a Manty, Havenite, Andie,.... Is he still working for the Solarianss - is it an internal Solarian plot? Interdepartmental fighting? Of course he stil lworking with the Gendarms - He didn't even quit - he's still on "leave".

Because Freud was right - sometimes a Cigar is just a cigar. It is too easy to get turned around in the Hall of mirrors.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: MAlign Tradecraft
Post by Whitecold   » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:29 am

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For me the worst example of MAlign covert ops is not Harahap picking the same name over and over again or providing the second wave of resistance movements contacts that actually exist (Westman), but their use of their viral nanotech.

They operate it strictly under the principle of "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." It is not as undetectable as the MAlign believes, the havenites picked up on some DNA right on the first use when Gosclaude got killed, and speculated about the correct conclusion already.
What they utterly fail to consider is to provide a plausible explanation for any of their assassinations. Even without any trace of how it was done, the absence of any explanation leaves an obvious pattern.
The Webster assassination is especially bad, Dettweiler orders to use someone from the Havenite staff, to make it obvious, and calls the Manties neobarbs on top. He should know better than consider either Manties or Havenites brain-dead, and everyone who actually thinks about wonder why Haven would use someone from their own embassy or why anyone would accept such a suicide mission.
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Re: MAlign Tradecraft
Post by Somtaaw   » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:11 pm

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Whitecold wrote:The Webster assassination is especially bad, Dettweiler orders to use someone from the Havenite staff, to make it obvious, and calls the Manties neobarbs on top. He should know better than consider either Manties or Havenites brain-dead, and everyone who actually thinks about wonder why Haven would use someone from their own embassy or why anyone would accept such a suicide mission.



I believe Viktor Catchat and Anton Zilwicki both refer to that, as the Hall of Mirrors. Getting into double-, and triple-blind mentalities, which Viktor is actually far worse than Anton at doing such.

Two full Havenite governments that not only happily, but GLEEFULLY, used assassination as an everyday tool, and the third and latest government with a self-admitted terrorist/freedom fighter who also used assassination back in the day, you'd jump to conclusions and assume the simplest answer. And the Havenites could protest all they want about being setup, because they couldn't possibly be that stupid after centuries of assassination to be THAT obvious, right?

And Dettweiler was basically counting on that, and he really needed to try and keep Manticore and Haven from agreeing to their peace treaty, which is why he agreed to the Webster assassination. He didn't want Manticore surging into Talbott, and he most definitely didn't want peace between the only navies with podnoughts and years of combat experience becoming peaceful.
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Re: MAlign Tradecraft
Post by Whitecold   » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:40 pm

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At all cost wrote:"I know you've got a lot on your plate, but I'd like you to see to this little matter, as well. And this time, when you choose your vehicle, pick someone from the Havenite diplomatic staff on Old Earth. Sometimes you have to be really obvious to convince neobarbs to draw the desired conclusion."


For me this does not sound like any intricately planned game of double/triple blindside but plain arrogance on the MAligns part.
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Re: MAlign Tradecraft
Post by Somtaaw   » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:45 pm

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Whitecold wrote:
At all cost wrote:"I know you've got a lot on your plate, but I'd like you to see to this little matter, as well. And this time, when you choose your vehicle, pick someone from the Havenite diplomatic staff on Old Earth. Sometimes you have to be really obvious to convince neobarbs to draw the desired conclusion."


For me this does not sound like any intricately planned game of double/triple blindside but plain arrogance on the MAligns part.



Yeah, but check the outcome, during the meeting between Elizabeth, Willie and Hamish Alexander, Honor, and I think Emily was there too, maybe one or two others as well. They were looking at the outcome, and double- and triple-thinking it.... why would Haven be so utterly stupid in an assassination, were they trying to do a double-bluff? so on and so forth.


I'll have to re-read the entire thing again, AAC, which chapter?
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Re: MAlign Tradecraft
Post by Somtaaw   » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:14 pm

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Hmm, I'd left a bookmark very nearby these points it seems. Perfect..

At All Costs wrote:"So that's why the operation failed," she continued. "However, removing Harrington herself, while it would have been extremely satisfying personally to all of us on several levels, was never really the primary object of killing her. True, it would have been useful to deprive the Manties of one of their best naval commanders. And, equally true, the fact that she and Anton Zilwicki have become such good friends only adds to the reasons to want her dead. But what we were really after was killing her in a way which would convince the Manties generally, and Elizabeth Winton in particular, Haven had done it. And that, Albrecht, is exactly the conclusion which our Foreign Office agent informs us they all reached. After all, who else had a reason to want her killed?"


Bardasano briefing Dettweiler on why the assassination attempt failed on Honor, and the reasoning (namely: oh look, Haven's at the assassination game again!!)


Anisimovna wrote:"I do," she replied firmly. "It's well known that the Legislaturalists and Pierre and his lunatics all used assassination as a standard tool. Given that history, it was inevitable, I think, for the Manties to automatically assume that Pritchart—who's killed quite a few people herself, in her time—ordered Harrington's assassination. Especially given how successful Harrington's raids have been." She shrugged. "So as far as I can see, Isabel's right. The operation succeeded in its primary objective."


The very same meeting, only a few paragraphs later.

"Mostly because the Manties have replaced the complete incompetents High Ridge and Descroix had assigned to their embassy on Old Earth." Anisimovna grimaced. "I never would have picked Webster as an ambassador, but I have to admit that he's doing them proud. I suppose it has something to do with all the political experience he gained as First Space Lord. At any rate, he comes across as a very reassuring, solid, reliable, truthful fellow. Not only as a talking head on HD, either. Several of our sources tell us he comes across that way in one-on-one conversations with League officials, as well. At the same time, he—or someone on his staff, although all the indications are that he's the one behind it—has orchestrated a remarkably effective PR campaign.
"We're making progress, Albrecht. All the imagery of blood, explosions, and body parts coming out of Split are at least creating a widespread sense that someone in the Cluster objects to the annexation. And our own PR people tell us they're making some ground in convincing the Solly in the street to project Nordbrandt's activities onto all the Cluster's systems. But I'd be misleading you if I suggested Webster isn't doing some very successful damage control. In particular, he's succeeded in pointing out that actions like Nordbrandt's are those of a lunatic fringe, and that lunatics aren't exactly the best barometer for how the sane members of any society are reacting."
"And how serious is that?"
"For our purposes, not very, at this point," Anisimovna said confidently. "We're providing a justification for Frontier Security to do what we want. We don't have to convince the Solly public; we only have to provide a pretext OFS can use, and they've had lots of practice using far less graphic pretexts then Nordbrandt and Westman. Assuming President Tyler and his Navy hold up their end, Verrochio will have all the fig leaf he needs."
"I see." Detweiler pondered for several seconds, then shrugged.
"I see," he repeated. "Still, from what you're saying, this Webster is at least a minor irritant, yes?"
"I think that's fair enough," Anisimovna agreed.
"And he's popular on Manticore?"
"Quite popular. In fact, there was considerable pressure to reassign him to command their Home Fleet, rather than 'waste' him as a diplomat."
"Then having him assassinated by the Peeps would be more than mildly irritating?"
"It certainly would."
"Very well. Isabel."
"Yes, Albrecht?"
"I know you've got a lot on your plate, but I'd like you to see Old Earth. Sometimes you have to be really obvious to convince neobarbs to draw the desired conclusion."


The entire conversation boiled down to... well, we tried (and failed) to assassinate Honor, but at least it looks like Haven did it.... and regarding Talbott, we're doing a great job of making Solarians think Manticore's being big, bad and evil. But Webster is a pain, and we didn't fully achieve the objective by trying to kill Honor. So let's be really, REALLY obvious that Haven is behind this assassination, kill Webster, and remove two thorns with one kill.
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Re: MAlign Tradecraft
Post by Whitecold   » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:40 pm

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I'm not questioning the choice of Webster as a target, but that they decided to use the nanotech. I'm sure they could have gotten a hitman and framed Haven in a better concealed way.
In the end it only works out like they wanted because Elizabeth and Elizabeth alone is freaking pissed at Haven. Betting on the emotional response of a single person is not a safe bet to make.
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Re: MAlign Tradecraft
Post by Somtaaw   » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:16 pm

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Whitecold wrote:I'm not questioning the choice of Webster as a target, but that they decided to use the nanotech. I'm sure they could have gotten a hitman and framed Haven in a better concealed way.
In the end it only works out like they wanted because Elizabeth and Elizabeth alone is freaking pissed at Haven. Betting on the emotional response of a single person is not a safe bet to make.



At All Costs wrote:"So that's why the operation failed," she continued. "However, removing Harrington herself, while it would have been extremely satisfying personally to all of us on several levels, was never really the primary object of killing her. True, it would have been useful to deprive the Manties of one of their best naval commanders. And, equally true, the fact that she and Anton Zilwicki have become such good friends only adds to the reasons to want her dead. But what we were really after was killing her in a way which would convince the Manties generally, and Elizabeth Winton in particular, Haven had done it. And that, Albrecht, is exactly the conclusion which our Foreign Office agent informs us they all reached. After all, who else had a reason to want her killed?"


Re-quoting and bolding for emphasis. They attempted to kill Honor with her own flag lieutenant, and make it look like it was a Havenite operation... and they succeeded in making it look like exactly what they wanted. But to drive the point home, and have the side-perk of stopping the counter-PR that Webster was doing, they planned to kill Webster too.

In At All Costs, chapter 50 at the end, was the meeting dicussing the Webster assassination. Within less than 24 hours from Webster being shot and killed, the attempt on Ruth happens (AAC, chapter 51), and the full house meeting in chapter 52 with the full "Elizabeth inner council". Lord Grantville (Willy Alexander), Hamish Alexander, Honor, Anthony Langtry, and Elizabeth herself. Zero doubts at this time, that all 3 attempts (Honor, Webster, and Ruth) were Havenite operations.

And Hamish had the following musing during that meeting:
If only the three assassination attempts hadn't been so damned similar! Yet, there it was. Three separate attacks, each of them a clearly suicidal assault by someone with absolutely no personal reason to want the intended victim dead . . . and no chance of surviving his own attack. And if Mesa clearly had reasons to want Berry Zilwicki dead, and possibly had reasons to want Jim Webster dead, what reason did they have for the attack on Honor? Try as he might, he couldn't come up with an answer for that question.
Occam's razor , he thought. The simplest answer that covered all the observed facts was most likely to be the truth. And the simplest answer was that the same people had to be behind all three attacks. And given the timing on Webster's murder and the attempt to kill Berry, whoever it was must have wanted to derail the peace conference. But for them to do that, they had to know where the conference was to be held, and no one had known outside the Cabinet and the highest echelons of the Foreign Ministry; the Kingdom of Torch; the Erewhonese . . . and Eloise Pritchart's administration. Everyone had known the conference was to be held, but not where , and he simply couldn't believe Erewhon would have allowed the information to leak. Not when they knew how sensitive Manticoran sensibilities must remain in the wake of their transfer of so much technological information to Haven. Torch certainly wouldn't have leaked it, and there hadn't been so much as a whisper of it in the Star Kingdom's press.


Which pushes it into the Hall of Mirrors, could a nation with almost a century of assassination experience REALLY be that stupid, they'd use their own man in a suicide assassination? Normally, you'd think no, but then as I originally pointed out... you fall into double-bluff? Haven actually was behind it, but used their own made so they can protest they're being framed. Which they did (and truthfully) but nobody believes them, because it's Haven.
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