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Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?

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Re: Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:24 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:I'd disagree on any bio's being only text, and short. I again point to how during her command of the Wayfarer, Honor picked up exactly how Giscard was operating in Silesia for commerce raiding. [previously I had called him Tourville, but it was Giscard who was the expert] That means that over and above the "bare bones" bio on him (which iirc, was pretty tiny because before the Committee of Public Safety, he was barely a commander, and thus a 'small fish' not worth bioing) it included the article he wrote about "How to Commerce Raid a hostile nation" [not the real article name, we were never really given that] and picked up exactly how he advocated deploying. That requires more than a precis, but the full up actual document... which again leads to the question of how large was the article?

Let's also examine how during Honor's command on Hell, Honor discovered that she literally could not use the data from a smaller ship (with its corresponding smaller databanks) to properly operate a larger ship that had its computers lobotomized. Which would give the general indication that the majority of a ships molycirc storage space is actually devoted to running the ship, and her weapons.

That means to just operate your ship, beyond the actual operating system of the ship, you're using a lot of space to store all codes for your encrypted military data, codes for your missiles command and control + self-destruct commands, codes for your Ghost Rider (or equivalent RDs), and the million and one other needs for military encryption over and above the bare bone Operating System to make the ship even 'turn on'.


Of course, you also need to be handling information on known planets (and their orbital patterns) because you wanna drop out of hyper on least-times, not clear across the system right?

Orbital data on the stars themselves, cause they move too.... data on hyper waves (think this data's a little more important than bio's on commanders you probably wont ever encounter... such as your enemies home fleet CO, while you're a dinky CO of a picket in the backend of nowhere)

Then there's the data on your mechies, which would require not just size/displacement and thrust, but their trade routes, their identification signatures, etc. In a related manner, we have directly seen captains also get deployed (to Silesia) with allied & non-friendly merchy data. Honor receieved all the information regarding Silly and Andy merchy stuff, not just when she deployed with the Wayfarer, but as Admiral Harrington commanding Task Group Sidemore.

Could a modern warship in the USN carry every piece of data that the Pentagon has stored that might be useful, in addition to all the data it needs simply to operate it's own systems and weapons? I rather doubt it, it gets loaded with the data it needs, plus some of the data it might, and that's with real-time access to HQ for updates as necessary.

Every bit of data no. But with even DDs being larger than a Supercarrier, and knowing there's no real-time access to HQ, I'd think you could find the cubage for a couple spare racks of storage space to store information on, at minimum, ship captains and above for the navy you're currently at war with.

That should be less than 10,000 entries. So you could easily dedicates 10-20,000 pages to each. (And many of them won't have that much information known about them).

Let's put it another way. The entirety of the English text of Wikipedia (uncompressed) could fit 10 times over onto a single 512 GB SD card, the size of a couple postage stamps. You don't think they can find space for a spare SD card with a couple Wikipedias worth of information dedicated to the commanding officers of their entire opponent's navy?


Either Molycircs have way lower storage density than 2015 AD cameras or this is a fairly artificial limitation.
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Re: Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?
Post by pnakasone   » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:59 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Let's put it another way. The entirety of the English text of Wikipedia (uncompressed) could fit 10 times over onto a single 512 GB SD card, the size of a couple postage stamps. You don't think they can find space for a spare SD card with a couple Wikipedias worth of information dedicated to the commanding officers of their entire opponent's navy?


Either Molycircs have way lower storage density than 2015 AD cameras or this is a fairly artificial limitation.

Given that the Honerverse is a long runner real life computer tech simply outpaced his predictions. In 1992 when On Basilisk Station was first published would you have believed that some like a 512 GB SD card could be made as a consumer product?
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Re: Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?
Post by Erls   » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:49 pm

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Another thought (or two) regarding the data..

In the RMN entry for Amos Parnell prep-War, would it be useful for fleet commanders (and task force commanders) in the RMN to have not only his bio, but also
- Complete copies of any books written by him (and the books he cited in his books cross-referenced into the data so the commander can gain insight),
- Complete copies of any prior tactical engagements he has had a commanding role in,
- Data about the political situation he is facing, and
- Data about force projections and deployments?

Look at it this way: To the RMN, commander bios is probably well down the list of importance after you get past the top tier of Admirals.

How much data (and physical space) would a complete astro map of the universe, showing hyper limits, orbits, installations, and gravity waves take up? Probably a massive amount. And that is just something you always have because it would take more work cutting out specific areas than giving every ship the same update.

How much data then is used up on local focus? EG, if in Silesia you'll want records of every known Manticore merchant expected to be in the area, as well as those lost in the past decade or so (just in case you see it). Add in Andermani merchants. And now Andermani warships. And Silesian warships. And of course Havenite warships (just in case - they always are a threat). That will probably take up as much space as the astro map itself.

And then you have all of the room needed for the actual software that runs your ship. That likely takes up over 3/4ths of the total space available. Oh yeah, don't forget the tactical sims too. Those probably take up a pretty large chunk of room as well and are much more important than Bios.

You'll need to have storage banks so you can save new emissions data and anything else (probably a 5% buffer is built in just to be safe).

Finally, you have size limitations. In a warship, every cubic foot given to another computer bank is a cubic foot not available for armor, living space, weapons, etc... So no, they cannot just freely keep adding more computer space without sacrificing something else, somewhere.

Also, keep in mind... To have the data available to be put on a drive first presumes that ONI has been able to even get the data in time for it to be added.. For all we know, some of ONIs best agents in Haven took 6 months for dispatches because of all the cutouts that had to be built in. That means a ship on a 8 month deployment could literally be 14 months out of date on their Bios.
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Re: Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?
Post by SharkHunter   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:56 pm

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The missing pieces in terms of all that computer capacity, construction, et. all. A few thoughts...

First...nano assembly requires an extreme amount of processor power to program and control the "itty bit machines", the level of complexity there makes supercomputer processor power a REQUIREMENT. That said, since "nano-bot assemblers" are working at micron tolerances, you can bet the pieces will fit together perfectly dang near every time... with a big IF.

Next.... assume that you're out there in space doing battle with missiles that have "today's planet's worth of computer processing power" per missile all designed to either get a missile past nearly perfectly steered countermeasures at million of countermeasure range... or to stop that missile which is travelling at a high fraction of C from getting past your steered countermeasure.... in the last three to five seconds of it's run. All controlled by several "today'splanet's worth of processing power" trying to find a hole in the pattern, IF... (2nd big IF).

Next we get to things like banking, you've got to perfectly validate all those financial transactions within a VERY short time of emerging into another star system, otherwise the first transactions can negate later ones. You also need the supercomputer level responses on your home planets to do thngs like ordering a gazillion widgetbots for gargatuan-freighter X which will arrive in.... yada yada yada IF...

If you've got sufficiently talented programmers PLUS the back history from prior sufficiently talented programmers, for several generations of UBER talented programmers and managers....

Of the millions of programmers in the world today, how many o
f them are truly brilliant and doing the new stuff, and how many are making a living doing all that boring stuff that somehow manages to pay the bills for company X?....

My point is that the limitations in the HonorVerse aren't hardware. It's the human component.... which is why Manticore war tech is state of the art, why Grayson moved so quickly to lockstep with Manticore, and...why everyone else lags. Why Haven had to rely on big bad ole "greater numbers of muskets" that were ALMOST good enough. Yes/no?
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:55 am

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SharkHunter wrote:If you've got sufficiently talented programmers PLUS the back history from prior sufficiently talented programmers, for several generations of UBER talented programmers and managers....


Just an Observation:

My CP/M powered first computer could fit the entire operating system on a single 185 Kb five-inch single density floppy disk. It could load that operating system into 64 Kb of memory with room left over for applications programs and work-space for data manipulation.

Windows 3.1 + DOS took up six times as much disk space and required one MB of memory (640 Kb contiguous user accessible RAM.)

Current Windows versions require multiple CD-ROMs or download from the "Cloud" to install and hundred of Gigabytes of hard disk space to install and run smoothly -- or as smoothly as Windows ever runs.

If that trend continues for 2000+ years, the majority of the megatons of molycircs in Honorverse space ships is going to be consumed by the "operating system" and extensive buried "legacy code" that seldom if ever will get accessed.
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Re: Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:24 am

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Constantly overlooked in regards to computer storage space...

First of all, only an idiot would try to put intelligence data on "a hard disk rack". Everything stored needs to be SECURELY stored, everything needs to be RELIABLY stored, and there must be enough redundancy that even just minor battledamage can never kill off something important.

Modern real world SSDs and HDDs are utterly unsuitable, both in reliability and redundancy.
And that´s before even taking into account that neither form of storage deals all that well with the "extra fun" of space and high energy surroundings.
Meaning that if such are used, you need an extra level of backups.


And secondly:
If that trend continues for 2000+ years, the majority of the megatons of molycircs in Honorverse space ships is going to be consumed by the "operating system" and extensive buried "legacy code" that seldom if ever will get accessed.


That and the fact that HOW we store information keep getting a big chunk of that information bloat as well.
When i got my camera 10 years ago, it wasn´t top end or anything, but today the resolution it takes pictures in is worse than many mobile phones can manage.

And we´ve only just barely started the switch towards video+audio storage rather than texts and pictures.
And the resolutions and quality keeps being upped again and again.

So yeah, your point is very good, you just didn´t take it far enough that it included ALL kinds of data rather than just the OS.

Because if you look at it, if i write a computer program today, compile and save, if it doesn´t end up multimegabyte sized, it´s a pleasant surprise.

Yet, if i use my old .exe compiler, i can often do the same program in kB instead of MB without even the slightest effort. And that´s using a primitive compiler based on a variation of BASIC some guy originally wrote up in a few days as a fun little sideproject. It doesn´t even try to optimise the code or anything.

Yet the programmer normal of today is to follow the trends and always use the newest and "bestest", which euqates to code that is beyond bloated.

So, expect the future to use quite possibly a thousand times more space for storage.


Meanwhile, reality is starting to run into physical limitations for storage media, SSD memory cells can be made smaller sure, but its very hard to make them smaller and still reliable and maintain performance.
And the tech is still getting closer to where memory cells CANNOT be shrunk any more, regardless.
That limit will probably be reached in a decade or two, depending on how serious development is.

HDDs have enough tricks up its sleeve that it can probably keep up for a while, but there too physical limitations are becoming very visible.

Holographic data storage was once thought to be the next big thing, but that was in the 90s and development have barely gotten anywhere since then, it can be made to work in lab conditions, but is completely unsuitable for common use.

Quantum storage was another "next big thing", and turned out to be a laughably bad idea. Probably never will happen for real.

There are several technologies that "work", like advanced optical disk storage, where a single triple-thickness DVD can store something like 25TB... But those disks degrade even faster than CDs and DVDs, but they also have pathetically slow read speeds, with write speeds being floppydisk of the 80s level slow.

So, noone has essentially figured out a truly new data storage device in the last 2 decades, despite such being oooh so useful and massive research is done in the area.

While the technology in use is looking ahead into some very solid brick walls of physical limits on what CAN be done.

It is quite possible that noone comes up with a better solution before Honorverse time.
20 years ago i wouldn´t have said it was very likely, today i have to admit that technology in this area seems to have stalled, everything new is essentially just refinements or variations on existing techs.


So all in all? I´m really not surprised of the books level in this regard.
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Re: Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?
Post by George J. Smith   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:08 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:If you've got sufficiently talented programmers PLUS the back history from prior sufficiently talented programmers, for several generations of UBER talented programmers and managers....


Just an Observation:

My CP/M powered first computer could fit the entire operating system on a single 185 Kb five-inch single density floppy disk. It could load that operating system into 64 Kb of memory with room left over for applications programs and work-space for data manipulation.


Windows 3.1 + DOS took up six times as much disk space and required one MB of memory (640 Kb contiguous user accessible RAM.)

Current Windows versions require multiple CD-ROMs or download from the "Cloud" to install and hundred of Gigabytes of hard disk space to install and run smoothly -- or as smoothly as Windows ever runs.

If that trend continues for 2000+ years, the majority of the megatons of molycircs in Honorverse space ships is going to be consumed by the "operating system" and extensive buried "legacy code" that seldom if ever will get accessed.



That describes my first computer (Osborn One circa early 1980s) :geek:
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Re: Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:53 am

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George J. Smith wrote:That describes my first computer (Osborn One circa early 1980s) :geek:


Mine was the second Osborne Executive sold in Southern California. :D
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Re: Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:09 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:If you've got sufficiently talented programmers PLUS the back history from prior sufficiently talented programmers, for several generations of UBER talented programmers and managers....


Just an Observation:

My CP/M powered first computer could fit the entire operating system on a single 185 Kb five-inch single density floppy disk. It could load that operating system into 64 Kb of memory with room left over for applications programs and work-space for data manipulation.

Windows 3.1 + DOS took up six times as much disk space and required one MB of memory (640 Kb contiguous user accessible RAM.)

Current Windows versions require multiple CD-ROMs or download from the "Cloud" to install and hundred of Gigabytes of hard disk space to install and run smoothly -- or as smoothly as Windows ever runs.

If that trend continues for 2000+ years, the majority of the megatons of molycircs in Honorverse space ships is going to be consumed by the "operating system" and extensive buried "legacy code" that seldom if ever will get accessed.

There is no way that I will ever believe that Honorverse military computers has anything to do with Winblows. The only current US military computers that run Windows are the ones that are sitting on the desks of secretaries and end users. The real WOPR is most probably running a variant of UNIX - the most powerful and the most secure OS in the world - upon which the internet itself is built.

The US military would never use anything remotely similar to a bloatfed obese beast like Windows - which is so easily susceptible to viruses, bugs, worms, viruses, attacks, viruses and more viruses.

Iran learned how vulnerable Winblows is when the US let the genie out of the bag with the first digital weapon *(STUXNET) engineered just for their little Windows baby.

Incidentally, Unix/Linux, by far the most powerful and secure OS in the world (banks, universities, military) still runs in just 8MB if you'd like - stripped down. A very powerful yet stripped down version that will run circles around windows requires just 64MB.

* http://www.wired.com/2014/11/countdown- ... y-stuxnet/

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Hey, isn't this the GA construction plan?
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:03 am

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cthia wrote:Incidentally, Unix/Linux, by far the most powerful and secure OS in the world (banks, universities, military) still runs in just 8MB if you'd like - stripped down. A very powerful yet stripped down version that will run circles around windows requires just 64MB.


True, Unix and closes are far more compact than other operating systems. That doesn't keep the application programs from becoming increasingly bloated, though.

I blame the increased -- and increasing -- reliance on OOP, Object Oriented Programming. Building program objects by adding another layer to an existing object just keeps all of the bugs and code of the old Object but makes the bugs impossible to find when you overload the "base" code.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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