Special Forces

Seems like I am treading on a well discussed topic, but maybe with a different spin. I am not just thinking about elite forces in terms of SOCOM, but instead in terms of augmented forces. These troop would be have a limited knowledge of the truth, biologically enhanced and outfitted, and operate in cells... maybe 3-5, leaning more on five. They would serve as honor guard, special ops, covert agents, etch. The training and augmentation would be extensive, and it would be in preparations for the coming return of the scumbags sleeping under the temple. Anyway, just my toss at the dart board.

Montrose Toast wrote:Yes. The US followed the UK's lead in forming dedicated SOF [or reforming in the case of the Rangers].

Did so despite the best efforts of the US Airborne Mafia and the USMC leadership which considered SOF to be an oxymoronic concept of an elite within an elite. [And a way to undermine the quallity of their commands by taking the best away from them.]

Almost all formation, upgrades and expansions of US SOF were opposed by the Regular leadership in the five-sided rubber-room and rammed down their throats by the political side. Including the establishment of USSOCOM as an equal Combatant Command and the resulting promotion of a SOF LTG to General despite his only having a corps-sized force...

The boundry between SOF and elite Lt Inf forces [E.G. UK Marine Commando] is quallity and mind-set.
Those Marines that try for and make it into SBS are SOF. Those that are unwilling to tryout or don't make the grade are Royal Marine Commandos. Every SBS troop can do the job of a RM - not every RM can make the cut to be in the SBS.

Even within SOF there are varying levels of elite.
USA SF is considered the low-end of US SOF.
USA Rangers are a bit higher.
Then you get into the bare-knuckles bar-fight between SEAL, SFD-D, and Marine Recon over who is top-dog.

[SFD-D requires Ranger and SF quallifications to be eligible to try out and still flunks 90%.]

Edit: Note that by UK standards USA SF and Rangers would not be SOF. UK 1st Para Bn fills the role/mission the USA Rangers fill in USSOCOM and USA SF training role is just a secondary function of all troops in the UK system.

Each country has varying definitions and capabilities of SOF based on their philosopy/role/missions and available strength...

What the hell did I just read? I hope you just typoed the hell out of a post.

Isilith wrote:

Montrose Toast wrote:Yes. The US followed the UK's lead in forming dedicated SOF [or reforming in the case of the Rangers].

Did so despite the best efforts of the US Airborne Mafia and the USMC leadership which considered SOF to be an oxymoronic concept of an elite within an elite. [And a way to undermine the quallity of their commands by taking the best away from them.]

Almost all formation, upgrades and expansions of US SOF were opposed by the Regular leadership in the five-sided rubber-room and rammed down their throats by the political side. Including the establishment of USSOCOM as an equal Combatant Command and the resulting promotion of a SOF LTG to General despite his only having a corps-sized force...

The boundry between SOF and elite Lt Inf forces [E.G. UK Marine Commando] is quallity and mind-set.
Those Marines that try for and make it into SBS are SOF. Those that are unwilling to tryout or don't make the grade are Royal Marine Commandos. Every SBS troop can do the job of a RM - not every RM can make the cut to be in the SBS.

Even within SOF there are varying levels of elite.
USA SF is considered the low-end of US SOF.
USA Rangers are a bit higher.
Then you get into the bare-knuckles bar-fight between SEAL, SFD-D, and Marine Recon over who is top-dog.

[SFD-D requires Ranger and SF quallifications to be eligible to try out and still flunks 90%.]

Edit: Note that by UK standards USA SF and Rangers would not be SOF. UK 1st Para Bn fills the role/mission the USA Rangers fill in USSOCOM and USA SF training role is just a secondary function of all troops in the UK system.

Each country has varying definitions and capabilities of SOF based on their philosopy/role/missions and available strength...

What the hell did I just read? I hope you just typoed the hell out of a post.

So - I have been reading this and I have a couple small observations.

First - The Special Forces teams and the Rangers have different mission profiles, though to be honest I would beet on a Green beret over a ranger any day of the week.

With that said, neither mission profile seems to be required on Safehold in this engagement. There is no need for cadre, and the scout snipers and cavalry/dragoons seem to be able to provide the fast moving engagement profile provided by the Rangers.

There are riverine and littoral ships, which is what we would call special boats, there are engineering units that have divers attached.

The only item that I know could be useful would be some soft of group to clear the Forward Edge of Battle of Civilians. The question being - how would they be moved efficiently without motorized transport?

There is no need for Civil Military Operations as the government is sending in specialists to handle those functions, leaving only the care and feeding of refugees, which is a follow on for clearing the forward edge of battle.

Refugee Camps can be administered by Military Police or even regular soldiers.

The idea behind 'Special Forces' is that you do not want to carry in the TOE... At this point it does not seem that having specialized units will add anything as the transit times are so large.

In other words, without the ability to move highly trained individuals as units quickly there is no point in having distinct units as they would never be in the 'right' place to be an effective force multiplier. Besides they have Merlin, what else do they need?

Just my 2 cents

Hi Shaeun,

Welcome to the forums!

Please enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum!

Kudos for your several excellent points!

RFC has mad made them himself several times but some people don't read the FAQ or previous threads and just rehash tired old threads.

I eagerly look forward to your future posts.

L

shaeun wrote:

Isilith wrote:**quote="Montrose Toast"**Yes. The US followed the UK's lead in forming dedicated SOF [or reforming in the case of the Rangers].

Did so despite the best efforts of the US Airborne Mafia and the USMC leadership which considered SOF to be an oxymoronic concept of an elite within an elite. [And a way to undermine the quallity of their commands by taking the best away from them.]

Almost all formation, upgrades and expansions of US SOF were opposed by the Regular leadership in the five-sided rubber-room and rammed down their throats by the political side. Including the establishment of USSOCOM as an equal Combatant Command and the resulting promotion of a SOF LTG to General despite his only having a corps-sized force...

The boundry between SOF and elite Lt Inf forces [E.G. UK Marine Commando] is quallity and mind-set.
Those Marines that try for and make it into SBS are SOF. Those that are unwilling to tryout or don't make the grade are Royal Marine Commandos. Every SBS troop can do the job of a RM - not every RM can make the cut to be in the SBS.

Even within SOF there are varying levels of elite.
USA SF is considered the low-end of US SOF.
USA Rangers are a bit higher.
Then you get into the bare-knuckles bar-fight between SEAL, SFD-D, and Marine Recon over who is top-dog.

[SFD-D requires Ranger and SF quallifications to be eligible to try out and still flunks 90%.]

Edit: Note that by UK standards USA SF and Rangers would not be SOF. UK 1st Para Bn fills the role/mission the USA Rangers fill in USSOCOM and USA SF training role is just a secondary function of all troops in the UK system.

Each country has varying definitions and capabilities of SOF based on their philosopy/role/missions and available strength...**quote**

What the hell did I just read? I hope you just typoed the hell out of a post.

So - I have been reading this and I have a couple small observations.

First - The Special Forces teams and the Rangers have different mission profiles, though to be honest I would beet on a Green beret over a ranger any day of the week.

With that said, neither mission profile seems to be required on Safehold in this engagement. There is no need for cadre, and the scout snipers and cavalry/dragoons seem to be able to provide the fast moving engagement profile provided by the Rangers.

There are riverine and littoral ships, which is what we would call special boats, there are engineering units that have divers attached.

The only item that I know could be useful would be some soft of group to clear the Forward Edge of Battle of Civilians. The question being - how would they be moved efficiently without motorized transport?

There is no need for Civil Military Operations as the government is sending in specialists to handle those functions, leaving only the care and feeding of refugees, which is a follow on for clearing the forward edge of battle.

Refugee Camps can be administered by Military Police or even regular soldiers.

The idea behind 'Special Forces' is that you do not want to carry in the TOE... At this point it does not seem that having specialized units will add anything as the transit times are so large.

In other words, without the ability to move highly trained individuals as units quickly there is no point in having distinct units as they would never be in the 'right' place to be an effective force multiplier. Besides they have Merlin, what else do they need?

Just my 2 cents

There's one type of special forces that might be needed in the Safehold context.

What's under the Temple might eventually awaken. It might be 20 years from now, or it might be earlier. After all, we don't know what might trigger OBS and whatever electronics are there under the Temple to wake the rest of it ahead of schedule.

Also, remember that key the Wylsynn family had, to be used if there is a danger to the Church? How can Merlin, Cayleb & Co know that there aren't more such keys, that can be used when someone in the Church decide that the Church needs help of a higher order?


Now, these special forces... remember from OAR, Merlin had some thousand TF rifles, APCs, an assault shuttle and what not in his cave. And within limits of available resources (some of which Howsmyn might provide, others he probably cannot), Owl can construct more stuff.

It might make sense to have a regiment-sized force ready to use that. Of course, they would have to be told the full truth, which would expand the circle of those who know by a huge number, and would present a potential for a serious security breach.

But if they are told, ahead of time, that volunteers will be told assorted secret info, and thus, for the duration of the war, they won't be allowed communication with the rest of the world... I'm sure that among all the ICA/ICN, there would be enough volunteers. Check everyone using Stone of Schueler, to be sure you don't get any COGA spies.

When will that force be needed? Well, it's reasonably to assume that when ICA/ICN besiege the Temple itself, if what's under it doesn't wake up soon thereafter, then it won't wake up at all (until the appointed time).
So that's the time when you could need a TF-equipped regiment, with APCs, with the assault shuttle, scout skimmers out in the open, and anything else that's in the Nimue's Cave or that can be produced by that time.

And the time for that (RFC willing) might come soon. After all, ICN has enough ships that it can send a few dozen of them along the north coast of Siddarmark as soon as the ice melts. Add 50K or so troops from Corisande, Siddarmark and wherever (or, if you want to use only Charisians, send these troops where Charisian troops are, and that will free Charisian troops) and they can defeat the Inquisition (most of the COGA forces around Zion and the Temple are inquisitors, not the Army of God), and encircle the Temple, telling them to surrender or starve.

Aethor wrote:There's one type of special forces that might be needed in the Safehold context.

What's under the Temple might eventually awaken. It might be 20 years from now, or it might be earlier. After all, we don't know what might trigger OBS and whatever electronics are there under the Temple to wake the rest of it ahead of schedule.

Also, remember that key the Wylsynn family had, to be used if there is a danger to the Church? How can Merlin, Cayleb & Co know that there aren't more such keys, that can be used when someone in the Church decide that the Church needs help of a higher order?


Now, these special forces... remember from OAR, Merlin had some thousand TF rifles, APCs, an assault shuttle and what not in his cave. And within limits of available resources (some of which Howsmyn might provide, others he probably cannot), Owl can construct more stuff.

It might make sense to have a regiment-sized force ready to use that. Of course, they would have to be told the full truth, which would expand the circle of those who know by a huge number, and would present a potential for a serious security breach.

But if they are told, ahead of time, that volunteers will be told assorted secret info, and thus, for the duration of the war, they won't be allowed communication with the rest of the world... I'm sure that among all the ICA/ICN, there would be enough volunteers. Check everyone using Stone of Schueler, to be sure you don't get any COGA spies.

When will that force be needed? Well, it's reasonably to assume that when ICA/ICN besiege the Temple itself, if what's under it doesn't wake up soon thereafter, then it won't wake up at all (until the appointed time).
So that's the time when you could need a TF-equipped regiment, with APCs, with the assault shuttle, scout skimmers out in the open, and anything else that's in the Nimue's Cave or that can be produced by that time.

And the time for that (RFC willing) might come soon. After all, ICN has enough ships that it can send a few dozen of them along the north coast of Siddarmark as soon as the ice melts. Add 50K or so troops from Corisande, Siddarmark and wherever (or, if you want to use only Charisians, send these troops where Charisian troops are, and that will free Charisian troops) and they can defeat the Inquisition (most of the COGA forces around Zion and the Temple are inquisitors, not the Army of God), and encircle the Temple, telling them to surrender or starve.

The societal impact of exposing such a force would be devastating to the development of a religiously free Safehold.

It would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the EoC had been duped and was in fact a pawn to Shan-Wei...

We consider this to be a good thing, but the religious folks on Safehold would be horrified(at best)

While I do agree that a high technology force might be required, I would posit that such a force already exists and just needs to be expanded from it's current membership of 2 (Plus Langhorne knows how many alter egos). This would give you the elite resources with rapid response times required for these types of situations without adding the risk that a regimental formation would bring.

3 guys doing magic are Sejins, 300 are demons!

shaeun wrote:While I do agree that a high technology force might be required, I would posit that such a force already exists and just needs to be expanded from it's current membership of 2 (Plus Langhorne knows how many alter egos). This would give you the elite resources with rapid response times required for these types of situations without adding the risk that a regimental formation would bring.

3 guys doing magic are Sejins, 300 are demons!

The catch is that Merlin & Co don't know what can awake from under the Temple, so it makes sense to have as much high-tech force available as can be equipped (there were a thousand TF assault rifles in the Nimue's Cave) and hidden from the rest of the world for a few years.

I don't think that RFC put those rifles there without a plan, though his plan might be different...

Aethor wrote:

shaeun wrote:While I do agree that a high technology force might be required, I would posit that such a force already exists and just needs to be expanded from it's current membership of 2 (Plus Langhorne knows how many alter egos). This would give you the elite resources with rapid response times required for these types of situations without adding the risk that a regimental formation would bring.

3 guys doing magic are Sejins, 300 are demons!

The catch is that Merlin & Co don't know what can awake from under the Temple, so it makes sense to have as much high-tech force available as can be equipped (there were a thousand TF assault rifles in the Nimue's Cave) and hidden from the rest of the world for a few years.

I don't think that RFC put those rifles there without a plan, though his plan might be different...

The plan may have been to keep readers guessing. Or to fill in a detail by way of indicating, indirectly, what wasn't stocked there. "If X, Y, and Z are listed as in there, then, if W were in there, it'd've been in that list too, so we can assume W was not..." For instance. I'm not saying that they aren't a Chekhov's Gun (literally) waiting to go off - I'm just saying there's no reason to be confident they are.

I personally got the idea that the items stored were things that could easily be expended from the stores or lost without too many questions.

Effectively this means that the items chosen are random. This allows for the inclusion of items later for plot reasons if desired but does not imply that the equipment has to be used.

I actually think that we all agree that something will eventually come of the extra military equipment, and just differ on the semantic details.

A regiment of TF Infantry vs an organization of Covert Operatives called Sejin...

The intent is the same, even if the words are different...

shaeun wrote:I personally got the idea that the items stored were things that could easily be expended from the stores or lost without too many questions.

Effectively this means that the items chosen are random. This allows for the inclusion of items later for plot reasons if desired but does not imply that the equipment has to be used.

I actually think that we all agree that something will eventually come of the extra military equipment, and just differ on the semantic details.

A regiment of TF Infantry vs an organization of Covert Operatives called Sejin...

The intent is the same, even if the words are different...

In-universe, it's definitely a matter of what could be sneaked off, rather than anything that represented necessary resources according to some plan by Pei or other conspirators. The disagreement here is a meta one: are they there as a part of a far-ranging plan for their use by RFC, as a red herring, as mere detail to fill in the scene, as insurance against the possibility he may need it if the series unfolds in a way he hasn't planned (as of OAR), and so on.

Some readers seem to believe that it has to be the first possibility, that we're just waiting to see them used by the Shan-wei Regiment. Me, I think we ought to regard the other possibilities as entirely live.

I'm sure something will come of the equipment, but among my best guesses is that it will be among the TF artifacts that Safehold can reverse-engineer and use as a yardstick for TF era technology standards when it comes to gearing up to taking the Gbaba back on. Under the original Operation Ark plan, they were supposed to have starships to reach and use for that purpose. They may not have that anymore. (Or they may - we the readers honestly can't be sure now.) Planetary combat gear is far from ideal for the purpose, but thanks to Commodore Pei, they will at least have that. It could well be that that's all the role they will have, and while it is prosaic, it's certainly still important.