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Suspension of Disbelief.

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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:45 am

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At All Costs - Chapter 58
"How bad is it?" Eloise Pritchart asked flatly.

Thomas Theisman looked at her for a moment before he replied.

She looked . . . broken, he thought. Not in spirit, not in her determination to meet her responsibilities. But if those remained intact, something else, deep inside was a bleeding wound, and his own heart ached in sympathy. She wasn't just his President. She was his friend, just as Javier had been, and Javier's death, after all he and she been through, all they'd faced and survived under the Committee of Public Safety, was a bitter, bitter blow.

She returned his gaze across her desk, her eyes as flat and lifeless as her voice, and he knew she knew what he was thinking. But she said nothing more. She simply waited, motionless.

"It's very bad," he said finally. "Lovat, and all the LACs, support ships, and munitions we were building there, are simply gone. Harrington took them all out. Not to mention destroying thirty-two podnaughts, four CLACs, all twenty-four of Admiral Trask's older superdreadnoughts, and something like ten thousand LACs. I can't even begin to compute the straight economic cost. Rachel's people are still in a state of shock just looking at the preliminary numbers, but I think you can safely assume that they just at least doubled the total economic and industrial cost of all their previous raids combined." He shook his head. "Compared to this, what we did to Zanzibar was a love tap."

Pritchart's face had tightened with fresh pain as the litany of destruction rolled out.

"Fortunately, the loss of life was much lower than it might have been," Theisman continued. "Admiral Giovanni had the sense to order Trask to stand down his superdreadnoughts when Harrington started punching out her system defense missile pods with proximity warheads. He scuttled them himself, to prevent their capture, but all of his people got off alive first. We lost more of the LAC crews. They had to at least try, and no one can fault Giovanni for thinking there ought to have been enough of them to let them swarm Harrington's lead task force. Except that every single one of the LACs covering that task force was a Katana. Combined with their new counter-missiles and whatever they used on our wallers, they massacred our Cimeterres. Even the new Alpha birds."

"How did they do it?" she asked in that same flat, terrible voice.

"We're still evaluating the preliminary reports. From what we've seen so far, it looks like they used two new weapons on us. What makes it hurt worse is that both their new systems appear to be absolutely logical progressions from their damned Ghost Rider technology, and we never even saw them coming.

"We should have realized that sooner or later they were going to strap weapons onto their recon drones. They've demonstrated they can operate them deep inside our defended areas with virtual impunity, and they probably took a certain pleasure from applying a variant of the same technique Saint-Just used to destroy Elizabeth's yacht in Yeltsin. The bad news is how close they can get them; the good news—such as it is—is that, even so, they can't get them all the way into attack range in stealth. They still have to get into range to execute their attacks, and not even Manty stealth systems can hide them during the last hundred thousand kilometers or so of their runs. They don't have the sort of acceleration rates missiles do, either, and to be used properly, they have to attack virtually from rest, or else they can't loiter until the proper moment. So they have relatively low closing velocities when they come in, and they can be engaged by counter-missiles and standard point defense, now that we know they're out there. Our intercept probabilities won't be good, especially given how little warning we'll have between the moment their drives peak and the moment they reach attack range, but we can probably cope with the threat."

He paused for a moment, then shrugged.

"Actually, this part of it's largely my own personal fault," he said unflinchingly. "Shannon warned me from the beginning that the Moriarty platforms' stealth wouldn't be good enough to hide them if the Manties figured out what they should be looking for. She wanted to build them into purpose-built superdreadnoughts, or at least add them as strap-on components to larger, more heavily defended platforms. I overruled her because of the need to get Moriarty into service as quickly as possible. I shouldn't have. She was right."

"So were you. We did—do—need them. You didn't see some sort of invisible attack coming, but neither did anyone else. Don't second-guess yourself on this one."

Theisman bobbed his head, but he knew that was one presidential directive he wasn't going to be able to obey.

"The other new weapon they deployed is actually much more frightening," he continued. "The accuracy it demonstrated is bad enough, but what it did to our EW capabilities and counter—missiles may even have been worse. I'm trying very hard to remember we're looking at preliminary reports, but I'll be frank, Eloise. It's hard not to panic over this one.

"I've talked it over with Linda Trenis and Victor Lewis. Obviously, we haven't been able to get Shannon's input yet, but I'll be surprised if she reaches any different conclusions on the basis of the data we have so far.

"They've obviously incorporated an FTL link into their missile telemetry. I'm guessing it has to be an entirely separate, dedicated platform—a roughly missile-sized bird they've managed to squeeze the grav-pulse com into—that serves as an advanced data processing node. Nobody ever considered doing anything like that before, because there really wasn't any point. Light-speed limitations were light-speed limitations, and using this sort of approach must tie all the missiles the command platform is controlling into a fairly tightly bunched cluster. That should make them more vulnerable to interception, and before the FTL com came along, any control platform would have been just as far from home and just as sluggish responding to telemetry commands as any other missile.

"But what they've done gives their missiles the next best thing to real-time command control input from their shipboard tac sections, Eloise. You aren't a professional naval officer, so you may not realize just what a huge advantage that is. Even with conventional single-drive missiles, there's always been a light-speed telemetry lag which makes it impossible to exert effective shipboard control at extended missile ranges. Or to get improved targeting data back from one set of your attack birds' sensors and use it to update the targeting of another set.

"But apparently that isn't true for the Manties anymore. They don't have to preprogram evasion maneuvers into their missiles. Don't have to launch with a locked-in attack profile, or even prepackaged EW profiles. They can use their shipboard computational ability to analyze counter-missile patterns, electronic warfare emissions, and then they can make changes on the fly, adjust everything as they get steadily closer, get steadily better data on the defenses they have to penetrate. They can command their electronic warfare missiles to activate at precisely the most effective moment—decided by the capabilities of a superdreadnought's tactical computers, not just what can be squeezed into a missile body. And on top of that, they can direct the flight of their attack missiles to take the greatest possible advantage of the holes their EW opens up.

"In short, their accuracy's going to be enormously greater than ours in any maximum-range engagement, and their missiles' ability to penetrate our defenses is going to be much higher, as well. So they're going to get through with more laser heads, and those laser heads are going to be much more accurate when they arrive."

"So our numerical superiority just evaporated," Pritchart said grimly.

"Not . . . necessarily," Theisman said, and for the first time since he'd entered her office, emotion flickered in her topaz eyes.

It was incredulity.

"You just said they can kill our ships—like they did Javier's—at ranges where we can't even hurt them," she said curtly.

"Yes, they can. With at least some of their ships."

"What do you mean?"

She cocked her head, eyes suddenly intent, and Theisman shrugged.

"Eloise, this is a new weapon, just deployed. Obviously, it's possible they've refitted with it across the board. I don't think they have, though."

"Why not?"

"Eighth Fleet's been their first team ever since they activated it. It's got their most modern ships, and what I believe is their best fleet commander. It's also been their primary offensive weapon. But Eighth Fleet obviously didn't have this capability at Solon, five and a half months ago. If they'd had it, they sure as hell would've used it when Javier blindsided them.

"For that matter, if they'd had it in general deployment two and a half months ago, when Elizabeth accepted your invitation to a summit, she probably wouldn't have accepted in the first place. You know how she feels about us, and why. Do you really think she would have agreed to sit down to negotiate if she'd had this broadly deployed and ready to go?" He snorted in harsh, bitter derision. "No, if this had been available to Elizabeth Winton on that sort of scale, she would have told us to pound sand. And then she would have gone onto the offensive, taken back every single thing we took away from them in Thunderbolt, and carried straight on through to punch out Haven and occupy Noveau Paris the way they should have at the end of the last war."

"Maybe she only accepted in the first place to buy time while they got it deployed," Pritchart countered.

"Possibly," Theisman conceded. "In fact, that's probably effectively what happened, at least on a small scale. But look at what they did with their new weapon. They swooped down on Lovat, which, admittedly, was a far more important target than anything they'd hit before. They came in, they mousetrapped and massacred the real defensive force when it came out of hyper," a part of his mind cursed himself for his choice of verb as fresh pain flashed through her eyes, but he continued steadily, "then headed in-system, wiped out the LACs and a batch of obsolete wallers, and wrecked the star system's industrial base. Right?"

"Yes," she said, her voice once again curt.

"Then why do it to Lovat?" he asked simply. "If they had enough ships capable of deploying and using this weapon, why not go directly for Haven? Hit us with their own version of Beatrice? Trust me, Eloise—Caparelli, White Haven, and Harrington are at least as good as strategists as anyone on our side. And if we had a weapon like this available in decisive quantities, or if we had any prospect of having it available in those quantities in the immediate future, we would never tell the other side we had it by taking out a secondary target, however attractive it might be. We'd save it, keep it completely under wraps, until we could use it in a single offensive which would end the war. Think about it. That's exactly what they did last time around, in Operation Buttercup—sat on their new ships and weapons until they were ready, then hammered us into scrap."

"So you're saying what they did at Lovat indicates they don't have it broadly deployed?"

"I think that's exactly what it indicates. I think they showed it to us early because they know as well as we do what the tonnage numbers look like right now, and they're really sweating the possible Solarian threat. They're not just still trying to force us to redeploy, to fritter away our strength. They probably won't mind if they can convince us to waste time doing that while they carry out their refits, or iron out the production bottlenecks, or whatever it is they need to do to get this thing deployed throughout their wall of battle. But they'd really prefer for us to think they already have. They want this war over, before the Sollies horn in, and they're hoping we'll decide we're screwed and throw in the towel. And when they do get it deployed, we will be screwed, make no mistake about that."

"So what are you suggesting, Tom?"

"I'm saying we have three options. First, get them to agree to talk to us again and settle this thing without anyone else getting hurt on either side. Second, surrender before they get their new weapon fully into service and slaughter thousands more of our personnel the way they did in Buttercup. The way they did to Javier at Lovat. Third, go ahead and hit them with the Bravo variant of Beatrice before they can get it into full deployment."

"My God, Tom. You can't be serious!"

"Eloise, we're out of other options, and we're out of time." He shook his head. "You know how I've felt about this war from the beginning. I want the first option. I want to talk to them, to tell them about Arnold, to settle this thing across a conference table, not with broadsides and gutted star systems. But they've rejected that option. I know why we think they did it. I know somebody's manipulating what's going on. But if they won't even talk to us, we can't tell them that.

"So, it's either surrender, or go for outright victory."

"And which of those two options would you prefer?" she asked softly.

"In a lot of ways," he admitted, "I'd almost prefer surrender. I've been fighting the Manticorans for a long time now, Eloise. Hell, I started fighting them in Yeltsin, before the first war ever began! My emotions where they're concerned are probably as tangled up and knotted as those of anyone else in the Republic, but I'm tired of seeing men and women under my command, men and women who follow my orders because they trust me, killed. Especially when they're being killed because of a stupid fucking misunderstanding.

"But I'm an admiral; you're the politician. Is a surrender to them possible?"

"I don't know." She inhaled deeply, her eyes glistening with unshed tears. "I just don't know. I could carry the Cabinet with me, but I don't see how I could possibly carry the Senate, even if I told them everything we suspect about Arnold at this point. And I don't have the power, as President, to declare war or conclude peace—or surrender—without the advice and consent of the Senate. God only knows what would happen if I tried. Our legal system and chains of authority are still so new, they might shatter outright if I ordered a surrender and Congress repudiated my orders. Everything we've worked for could collapse. Even your navy could come apart. A lot of it would probably obey the order if you endorsed it, but other parts might ignore it and try to keep prosecuting the war. We might even wind up with another round of civil war!"

"Can we send a private message to Elizabeth, then?" Theisman was almost pleading. "Can we tell her we want another cease-fire? A stand down in place of all units while we send a diplomatic mission direct to Manticore?"

"Do you really think they'd listen after all that's happened?" Pritchart said sadly. "That's exactly what I proposed before, Tom! And they're convinced it was only a ploy. That I set it up for some Machiavellian reason of my own, and then tried to murder two teenaged girls to sabotage my own summit. If I try it again now, they're going to see it as an exact replay of the way Saint-Just derailed their Buttercup offensive. It would only 'prove' to them that their new weapons have us panicked."

A single tear tracked down her cheek, and she shook her head.

"I want this war ended even more than you do, Tom. I'm the one Arnold got to with his goddamned forged correspondence. I'm the one who started this entire fucking mess. And now look at it. Hundreds of thousands of men and women dead, star systems wrecked from one end to another, and even Javier."

"Eloise, it wasn't just you." Theisman leaned forward, reaching across the desk, and captured her hand and gripped it fiercely. "Yes, he fooled you. Well, he fooled me, the rest of the Cabinet, and the entire goddamned Congress, as well! You just said it yourself—you didn't have the power to declare war without advice and consent, and you got both of them."

"But I asked for them. It was my policy," she said softly. "My administration."

"Maybe it was. But the way we got here doesn't change where we are, or the options we've got. So, if we can't negotiate, and we can't surrender, what can we do except launch Beatrice? It's an 'all-costs' situation, Eloise, and thanks to your preliminary authorization and the forward redeployments we've already carried out, we can launch it far sooner than the Manties probably expect any response to this. And Beatrice Bravo was specifically designed to take out Eighth Fleet, as well. If we manage that, we knock out the only force we know is equipped with the new missiles, but even that's pretty much beside the point if the main op succeeds. That's really what it comes down to, now. If we wait, we lose; if we attack and I'm wrong about their deployment status, we lose; but if we attack and I'm right, we'll almost certainly win. It's that simple."

He looked into her eyes once again, still holding her hand.

"So which way do we go, Madam President?"


I've been hit over the head in the forums so much with a rolling pin trying to recondition my thinking on this area of disbelief that I thought I'd win by attrition due to the rising costs of lumber - to make the pins. However...


I still maintain that the Manties should have known that the Havenites were going to roll the dice that way. Harrington really left them no choice.

Really, it is Psychology 100 (no need for 101). If you corner an animal that really doesn't want to fight, then you've effectively cut off its options and it is left with no choice. It's not only going to fight -- It's going to fight like hell! I really feel it's a no brainer.

I really find it difficult to believe that there aren't any highly intelligent AI programs in the Honorverse that can make predictions based on predefined cookie cutter algorithms. Criminal investigators in the Honorverse should have access to AI's that can easily spit out serial criminals' profiles - advising them of the exact type person to be on the lookout for.

The same in the Honorverse in the War Room, a threat response computer should have been able to predict the rolls of the dice by Haven just as a computer system (IIRC) gave Theisman the varying options of attacking the Manty Home system. It wouldn't be a substitute for old-fashioned gray matter, but a complement. Manticore didn't survive as long as they did with so many 'envious of the junction' navies wanting to take that brass teapot away from them, because they turned out Elvis Santinos in job lots. The Elvises are mostly dead. So Honor should not have been the only one with foresight enough to imagine a "Beatrice" is coming over the hyper wall. It was so obvious that little kids were pulling on the hem of their mother's dress trying to get their attention, "The Peeps are coming mom."

And... rolling pin and rolling eyes time...

Sending all of the Apollo missiles away from the cover of the Home System first falls under the heading of a very bad idea - especially since you've cornered the wounded beast - showed him that you've developed a war changing weapon - AND knowing that you've left yourself with a Home Fleet with so many inadequate pre-pod designs!

Sure. I know that Manticore had obligations to other systems. I know that their concern was in keeping Haven off-balance. But as Theisman told Honor - your main concern is for your own people first - Home System. How can I protect you if I fall? And fall I almost did - Home System saved by a Salamander.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by Silverwall   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:21 am

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Along with the dumb as rocks computers and genetics mistakes my other pet peeve is a bit of a minor one.

I really dislike using the Washington Treaty era ship clasification system (FF, DD, CL, CA, BC, BB, DN, SD) given the roles of the ships and the way they are deployed along with the paralells to the Nelsonian period navies. It would have been much better in my mind to have used the Royal navy "Rate" system. The CA/CL distinction is particularly egregious but the DN/SD one is also fairly bad/

This would also make the discrepencies of a RMN dreadnought (Bellerophon 7.2 mtons) being considered inferior to a SL Superdreadnought (Scientist 6.9 mtons)

FF, DD, and CL would be below the rating system and called corvettes, sloops etc commanded by a LT to captain JG.

CA and BC would be 6th and 5th rates respectivly and called frigates and commanded by a senior grade captain of the list.

BB's are the obsolete 4th rates or the BCL nike's

DN and SD would be 3rd to 1st rate depending on weight and broadside.

To me this sould be a much better system as the CA, CL distinction only exists because of the washington and London treaties limiting cruiser armament and are far inferior to more natural titles used at the time such as protected, scout, destroyer leader etc.

maybe it's a petty gripe but I do find it jaring.
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by JustCurious   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:16 am

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Silverwall wrote:Along with the dumb as rocks computers and genetics mistakes my other pet peeve is a bit of a minor one.

I really dislike using the Washington Treaty era ship clasification system (FF, DD, CL, CA, BC, BB, DN, SD) given the roles of the ships and the way they are deployed along with the paralells to the Nelsonian period navies. It would have been much better in my mind to have used the Royal navy "Rate" system. The CA/CL distinction is particularly egregious but the DN/SD one is also fairly bad/

This would also make the discrepencies of a RMN dreadnought (Bellerophon 7.2 mtons) being considered inferior to a SL Superdreadnought (Scientist 6.9 mtons)

FF, DD, and CL would be below the rating system and called corvettes, sloops etc commanded by a LT to captain JG.

CA and BC would be 6th and 5th rates respectivly and called frigates and commanded by a senior grade captain of the list.

BB's are the obsolete 4th rates or the BCL nike's

DN and SD would be 3rd to 1st rate depending on weight and broadside.

To me this sould be a much better system as the CA, CL distinction only exists because of the washington and London treaties limiting cruiser armament and are far inferior to more natural titles used at the time such as protected, scout, destroyer leader etc.

maybe it's a petty gripe but I do find it jaring.

Agree completely. Use of CA for heavy cruiser only is silly because the USN used CA only because the treaty cruisers were replacing armoured cruisers which had had CA designations. But the treaty cruisers were derived from pre World War 1 light cruisers not from armoured cruisers. In World War 1 the USN had very few light cruisers and like many others was using armoured cruisers much of the time in light cruiser roles. Also battle cruisers had reduced the effectiveness of older armoured cruisers in their designed roles. But without this historical accident the use of CA rather than say CH for heavy cruiser makes no sense.
The use of dreadnought and super dreadnought for categories of capital ship larger than battleship is also grating. Historically they were not ship classifications but developmental stages of the battleship. They were always classed as battleships. A dreadnought was a battleship with a ballistically uniform main armament. A super-dreadnought was a very vaguely defined category but usually was a dreadnought with a main armament bore greater than 12 inches. Actuall using the term at all was a sort of hype. So how the hell did these terms get revived and applied tho the larger capital ships? Historically the term dreadnought reflect an abrupt technological change. RFC has given no indication of any such event in the Honorverse.
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by The E   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:44 am

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JustCurious wrote:Historically the term dreadnought reflect an abrupt technological change. RFC has given no indication of any such event in the Honorverse.


And in the Honorverse, the term Dreadnought refers to a specific armoring scheme that is only useful for (and thus only applied to) ships expected to be deployed in the wall of battle against other similarly armored vessels. When it was developed, it had a similar effect HMS Dreadnought had on our shipbuilding: Suddenly, all those Battleships people had built were worthless against an adversary that could field even a small number of Dreadnoughts in a Wall (reference Honor In Exile).
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by JustCurious   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:38 am

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The E wrote:
JustCurious wrote:Historically the term dreadnought reflect an abrupt technological change. RFC has given no indication of any such event in the Honorverse.


And in the Honorverse, the term Dreadnought refers to a specific armoring scheme that is only useful for (and thus only applied to) ships expected to be deployed in the wall of battle against other similarly armored vessels. When it was developed, it had a similar effect HMS Dreadnought had on our shipbuilding: Suddenly, all those Battleships people had built were worthless against an adversary that could field even a small number of Dreadnoughts in a Wall (reference Honor In Exile).

Could you let me know where in Flag in Exile this bit of information is? I don't remember it but probably skipped over it.
But even so dreadnought was never an official category. It was a term used in newspapers and journals. To the navies they were still battleships. And it had almost dropped out of use by World War 2 when there were very few pre-dreadnought battleships and armoured cruisers still in service. Its use as an official rate grates.
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by The E   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:05 am

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JustCurious wrote:Could you let me know where in Flag in Exile this bit of information is? I don't remember it but probably skipped over it.
But even so dreadnought was never an official category. It was a term used in newspapers and journals. To the navies they were still battleships. And it had almost dropped out of use by World War 2 when there were very few pre-dreadnought battleships and armoured cruisers still in service. Its use as an official rate grates.


I was referring to the Battle of Yeltsin, where it's very clear that Superdreadnoughts massively outclass BBs in terms of their potential to absorb damage.

The rest is admittedly conjecture based on what we've seen in House of Steel, and various things MWW has said over the years on the subject of BBs vs DNs/SDs.

That said, given that BBs fill a different tactical and strategic niche than DNs/SDs, I think using a different term for the two is adequately justified.
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:11 am

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cthia wrote:At All Costs - Chapter 58
snipping of wall of quote


I really find it difficult to believe that there aren't any highly intelligent AI programs in the Honorverse that can make predictions based on predefined cookie cutter algorithms. Criminal investigators in the Honorverse should have access to AI's that can easily spit out serial criminals' profiles - advising them of the exact type person to be on the lookout for.

The same in the Honorverse in the War Room, a threat response computer should have been able to predict the rolls of the dice by Haven just as a computer system (IIRC) gave Theisman the varying options of attacking the Manty Home system. It wouldn't be a substitute for old-fashioned gray matter, but a complement. Manticore didn't survive as long as they did with so many 'envious of the junction' navies wanting to take that brass teapot away from them, because they turned out Elvis Santinos in job lots. The Elvises are mostly dead. So Honor should not have been the only one with foresight enough to imagine a "Beatrice" is coming over the hyper wall. It was so obvious that little kids were pulling on the hem of their mother's dress trying to get their attention, "The Peeps are coming mom."



Other than the almost total lack of intelligent aliens with their own starships (not sold, or provided by the various various sects of humans) like I mentioned earlier...

yeah you are right that the absolute, and total lack of anything approaching an AI is a bit jarring. And I do mean absolute lack, because in every single case of 'information appearing from nowhere' is actually coming from various 'brain trust' type of groups.

Theisman's options for attacking Manticore, and the various shades of attack, all came from his officers in Bureau of Planning, under the general leadership of Linda Trenis, as detailed in AAC (somewhere, I cheated and checked her name in the wiki rather than find the quote). The Manticoran Admiralty received the same general planning ideas from their own BuPlanning, which falls under the Second Space Lord. So it was Pat Givens who came up with the Cutworms (and followups) and presumably also came up with the base idea for Buttercup.

And while I also agree with some others, like Silverwall, about how computers are slightly underperforming (disagree to the exact extent), that's primarily due to the lack of AI. A computer is only as smart as the programming inside it, and Honorverse computers are pretty stupid. The best information they really seem to provide, is to blink a light and wait to get noticed.... if they aren't busy exploding spectacularly and trying to kill the people who would be operating them :lol:
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:23 am

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JustCurious wrote:But we've never had a society with such a lopsided sex ratio. Especially on Grayson where they had such a harsh environment and life was marginal under employing women is something that I can't see them being able to afford to do.
On Masada the society wide hostility towards women on the part of the men would leave the men with little in the way of emotional connection. And with women outnumbering them it is hard to see them getting away with it. The murder rate on Masada would be very high. Both killings of women by men and the other way round.

Some of the more resent stuff (Grayson Navy Letters Home, etc) make it clearer that it was really only the upper class women who were underemployed. The lower class ones had to work though their incomes went to the (male) head of household.

So it's not like 2/3 - 3/4 of the population was just staying at home contributing nothing directly to the economy. They just weren't a celebrated part of the economy (more, somewhat shameful and un-discussed) and aspired to being well enough off that they could achieve their "rightful" place of being able to leave the workforce and focus on husband and family.
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by JustCurious   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:37 am

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The E wrote:
JustCurious wrote:Could you let me know where in Flag in Exile this bit of information is? I don't remember it but probably skipped over it.
But even so dreadnought was never an official category. It was a term used in newspapers and journals. To the navies they were still battleships. And it had almost dropped out of use by World War 2 when there were very few pre-dreadnought battleships and armoured cruisers still in service. Its use as an official rate grates.


I was referring to the Battle of Yeltsin, where it's very clear that Superdreadnoughts massively outclass BBs in terms of their potential to absorb damage.

The rest is admittedly conjecture based on what we've seen in House of Steel, and various things MWW has said over the years on the subject of BBs vs DNs/SDs.

That said, given that BBs fill a different tactical and strategic niche than DNs/SDs, I think using a different term for the two is adequately justified.

But why use dreadnought? MWW is using the term shorn of its historical context. Historically it was a sort of hype rather than the name of a category of ships with a certain role. Pre-dreadnought battleships had the exact same role as dreadnought types. And you do not name functional categories of ships after individual ships. MWW has never explained how the term came to be used. It would be fine if he explained the use of them and of CA as the results of sloppiness on the part of those reintroducing the term. Such sloppiness has happened historically. The example that comes to mind was the British reintroduction of the terms corvette and frigate in World War 2 for vessels smaller and less powerful than a sloop, the opposite of the situation in the days of sail and early steam warships.
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Re: Suspension of Disbelief.
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:37 am

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Location: Canada

The E wrote:
I was referring to the Battle of Yeltsin, where it's very clear that Superdreadnoughts massively outclass BBs in terms of their potential to absorb damage.

The rest is admittedly conjecture based on what we've seen in House of Steel, and various things MWW has said over the years on the subject of BBs vs DNs/SDs.

That said, given that BBs fill a different tactical and strategic niche than DNs/SDs, I think using a different term for the two is adequately justified.



Honorverse separating of BB and SD is viable, because like you said they serve different roles, and should have different designations. But he's also right, that DN and SD are so close to the exact same, there's almost no point to having DN's, or if you want to be technical no point to calling them superdreadnoughts except for the fear.


My reasoning between either DN or SD being "extinct", consists of a few things, one being the point that someone mentioned that Manticoran Bellerophon DN's are larger than Solarian Scientist SD's. But the other is the weapons differences; notably none. And since Grayson home-built, first-generation Battlecruisers (and later Manticoran designs) mount Superdreadnought-grade grasers, instead of cruiser-grade laser and graser mixes... and it was explicitly mentioned they mount superdreadnought weapons, not dreadnought.

That explicit point would try to indicate there is indeed a size factor, but Alliance ships still mounted substantial SD graser batteries. Which means its not size, but power... which comes from fusion plants... which means you could design destroyers to have SD grasers in their broadsides. They might only mount two or three, but could you imagine being an SLN commodore, who somehow got a squadron of Scientists into a Manty system with only a destroyer squadron to stop them.... and getting ripped apart (basically the original LAC vs Battleship fight in Hancock, pre-Buttercup).


The only, minor difference that I can see, and it truly is minor, is the exact degree of difference in armoring between a dreadnought and its super-sized cousin. Dreadnoughts being only a small degree smaller, which is probably where their lower armor comes to play, all in exchange for a slight acceleration increase? Either build a battleship (or battlecruiser, since those are being lumped in with the wall) for the speed, or you build a full-up superdreadnought for the armor (and be damned with being speedy).
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