Photography?

It was mentioned in the Airships thread that photography is well within the tech capabilities of Safehold. Without knowing the details of the Proscriptions of Jwo-jeng, I don't know if it would be held to be a violation; without knowing the details of the teachings of CoGA (either Templar or Charisian rite), I couldn't guess whether it would be held to be a 'capturing' or 'imprisoning' of the soul. Both of those questions are largely beside the point, however; my question is this:

Assuming that it is neither proscribed nor held to be soul-capturing, how do you get from where Safehold is now to the idea of photography, and thence to its development?

wiki is your friend

"Yes, Captain Athrawes?"
"Dr. Lywys, I was just wondering about something. You know those 'camera obscura' setups that painters use? What would happen if you covered the back of one with that chemical that darkens when exposed to light?"

Expert snuggler wrote:"Yes, Captain Athrawes?"
"Dr. Lywys, I was just wondering about something. You know those 'camera obscura' setups that painters use? What would happen if you covered the back of one with that chemical that darkens when exposed to light?"

IIRC Dr Lywys is a member of the inner circle now so he needn't be coy, but if Safeholdian painters do use them a camera obscura would be a very plausible developoment route to sell the 'invention' to others and Lywys would be just the person. If she has any time to spare from her high explosives development work, of course.

Correct, and agreed.

I would imagine [but see below] that no photosensitive chemicals made it into the Archangels' cook books - I can't think of any other than silver nitrate that would be any great need for [it was used as an antiseptic for the eye, particularly in newborns], and that could be replaced by something like the juice of the Fleming moss. Without an active and wide-ranging experimental alchemy/chemistry no one would be likely to run across them and note their peculiar property. That said, none are particularly difficult or hazardous to work with, so now that there are some active chemists I wouldn't be surprised if they were found without any intervention at all, assuming that they hadn't already been identified before the books started. It really depends on whether anyone among Dr Lywys' colleagues or students happened to be interested in wandering down the relevant byways. Whether anyone has or will spontaneously think of applying them to recording images is another matter. Again, it would depend on who they are and what their interests are.

If it isn't happening spontaneously, it would surprise me a little if nudges were applied any time in the near/medium future. There doesn't seem to be any real need for photography, or photosensitive materials in general, right away, although there are all sorts of them not too far down the road.

Thinking about it, it occurred to me that despite what I first said there could well be _one_ photosensitive process in the Writ. There's one that would be of use to Housmyn and others now, rather than a decade from now - and it's so useful for decent civil engineering that Langhorne might have wanted it available: the original ferro-gallate blueprint process or, just possibly, the later cyanotype process, although that one uses some pretty darned toxic materials. It works just fine with sunlight, so you don't even need decent artificial lights. It doesn't lend itself to continuous-tone imaging, but if it already exists then anyone at the College who comes across more flexible photochemicals might think of trying it.

Randomiser wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:"Yes, Captain Athrawes?"
"Dr. Lywys, I was just wondering about something. You know those 'camera obscura' setups that painters use? What would happen if you covered the back of one with that chemical that darkens when exposed to light?"

IIRC Dr Lywys is a member of the inner circle now so he needn't be coy, but if Safeholdian painters do use them a camera obscura would be a very plausible developoment route to sell the 'invention' to others and Lywys would be just the person. If she has any time to spare from her high explosives development work, of course.

Woo hoo!! First thread created from my original comments. YEAH (FIST PUMP)

>There doesn't seem to be any real need for photography, or photosensitive materials in general, right away, although there are all sorts of them not too far down the road.

Not far at all. There should be a photographer when the concentration camps are liberated. This is a propaganda war, a war for hearts and minds.

It will require long exposures, ruling out otherwise useful tactics like a hidden camera in Clyntahn's bedroom.

Louis R wrote:Correct, and agreed.

I would imagine [but see below] that no photosensitive chemicals made it into the Archangels' cook books - I can't think of any other than silver nitrate that would be any great need for [it was used as an antiseptic for the eye, particularly in newborns], and that could be replaced by something like the juice of the Fleming moss. Without an active and wide-ranging experimental alchemy/chemistry no one would be likely to run across them and note their peculiar property. That said, none are particularly difficult or hazardous to work with, so now that there are some active chemists I wouldn't be surprised if they were found without any intervention at all, assuming that they hadn't already been identified before the books started. It really depends on whether anyone among Dr Lywys' colleagues or students happened to be interested in wandering down the relevant byways. Whether anyone has or will spontaneously think of applying them to recording images is another matter. Again, it would depend on who they are and what their interests are.

If it isn't happening spontaneously, it would surprise me a little if nudges were applied any time in the near/medium future. There doesn't seem to be any real need for photography, or photosensitive materials in general, right away, although there are all sorts of them not too far down the road.

Thinking about it, it occurred to me that despite what I first said there could well be _one_ photosensitive process in the Writ. There's one that would be of use to Housmyn and others now, rather than a decade from now - and it's so useful for decent civil engineering that Langhorne might have wanted it available: the original ferro-gallate blueprint process or, just possibly, the later cyanotype process, although that one uses some pretty darned toxic materials. It works just fine with sunlight, so you don't even need decent artificial lights. It doesn't lend itself to continuous-tone imaging, but if it already exists then anyone at the College who comes across more flexible photochemicals might think of trying it.

I can see it being very useful for both intel and counter-intel work.

Don

Photography?

Only in versions that require a pretty sophisticated organic chemical industry to support.

There's a reason the Great Yellow Father was also one of the world's premier suppliers of specialty organics. And that their only real competitors were also high on the same list.

n7axw wrote:
I can see it being very useful for both intel and counter-intel work.

Don

Louis R wrote:Photography?

Only in versions that require a pretty sophisticated organic chemical industry to support.

There's a reason the Great Yellow Father was also one of the world's premier suppliers of specialty organics. And that their only real competitors were also high on the same list.

n7axw wrote:
I can see it being very useful for both intel and counter-intel work.

Don

I can see photography also being useful in an academic setting, creating situations where remote analysis of structures, troop deployments, crops etc. are carried out by individuals without access to OWL. If the idea is to teach the ability to think and analyze, the correct approach is not necessarily the most efficient. Photos can even be moved by telegraph by using a pixel replacement scheme - those to use it over a visual telegraph related to the Historical Chappe Telegraph is probably a bad idea.

I see photos being useful for textbooks, newspapers, service manuals, detailed reports about technology and as a way to document exactly what a captured document said without having to copy the entire document by hand.(though that will come with time, not more efficient to start with)

That said - the downstream effects are wonderful - but int he end is it a must have? I am not sure i would say yes.