Mesa occupation

kzt wrote:You might notice that there were no huge trials after the US Civil war. Why was that?

Because there were no laws -- either confederacy or union -- broken by any treatment of slaves, no matter how egregious.

Mesa, otoh, has explicit protections of slaves' rights which are routinely ignored and violated. IOW, laws have been broken.


I really don't expect any prosecutions except for really exceptional violations, but the whole point is that any prosecutions have to be conducted according to the laws in affect at the time the alleged crime was committed.

hanuman wrote:Slavery is a sufficiently emotional issue that such a move could very well lead to the fall of the Grant ville government.

JohnRoth wrote:I disagree. Vehemently.

As I said toward the beginning of this thread, nothing with the slaves will be settled until Jeremy X arrives on scene. Anybody with two brain cells more than God gave a hexapuma understands that - including most of the population of Manticore, Haven and Beowulf.

What Gold Peak will do is:

1. Isolate Manpower's off-world operations by destroying all slave ships and taking other actions.

2. Immediately honor Victor Cachet's promises by eliminating second class citizenship (seccies) and bringing the crime bosses into the interim government.

3. Announce that, as an interim measure until Jeremy X and the Beowulf delegation arrives, the provisions in the Mesan constitution guaranteeing good treatment for genetic slaves will be enforced to the degree possible. The interim government will be charged with making it happen.

4. Once she discovers that there are about a million "Mesan Alignment" members who have nothing to do with the Onion or the Detweiller Plan, she's going to task them with spearheading the necessary long-term cultural changes. They're basically the only group of free citizens who think the genetic slaves are human and deserve whatever civil rights they can handle.

The thing that hasn't been discussed up front is that Mesa, as a society, is based on genetic inequality - different lines are capable of doing different things well. It's even worse than most Mesans think, because they don't know about the clandestine "uplift" program that resulted in the Mesan alpha, beta and gamma lines. Trying to impose a government and political ideology that doesn't take this into account is not going to go well. That's why she's going to wait until Jeremy X, the Ballroom and the Torch delegation arrives. They grew up with that as a background cultural assumption, they'll have a much better idea how to handle it than anyone who is essentially an outsider to Mesan society.

It's a mess, and the worst thing will be to let the ideologs handle it. That goes nowhere, at high velocity and extreme loudness.

hanuman wrote:What are you disagreeing with? Let me respond point by point.

1. Mesa might be the central node of the slave trade, but it is by far not the only place where slaves were bred or 'warehoused'. There is an entire network of 'breeding stations' and distribution points throughout the Verge and even in the Shell, which doesn't even take into account all the slavers who operate independently from the great Mesan corporations. It will take literally decades to shut down the network, and even then, the market will still exist, if on a much smaller scale, because demand will still be there for pleasure slaves and other varieties. The best Michelle could do right now is to shut down the entire operation in the Mesan system itself.

Textev for the "entire network" of breeding stations, etc. I've seen occasional references, but an entire network? The whole question of how it works has been arm-waved away. Maybe we'll see more in the next book.

hanuman wrote:2. Absolutely agreed. The Seccie bosses are the only representatives of the majority population that are in any way or manner capable of governing. What form such an interim government might take is difficult to say - maybe on a regional or municipal basis with regular meetings at higher levels to coordinate and resolve disputes? Anyways, one thing that won't happen is that the current Mesan government structures will be allowed to remain in place.

I absolutely disagree. Most of the lower level has to remain in place, otherwise there will be absolute chaos. What will be replaced is the top level: the Mesan Board will go, some of the security organizations will be disbanded, and a new interim governing structure will be put in place to replace the Board.

One thing it occurs to me is that we may have different ideas of how long an "interim government" would exist. I am only talking about what Admiral Henke imposes as when she arrives; I do not expect it to last more than a few weeks until the Haven, Beowulf and Torch delegations arrive.

hanuman wrote:3. I refer to my previous post. Politically impossible, morally distasteful and illegal to boot. Won't happen. What might happen is that Michelle and the interim government will declare that the Mesan Constitution's civil rights provisions for Mesan citizens will henceforth apply to Seccies and slaves as well, and that the institution of slavery will no longer exist.

I disagree.

hanuman wrote:4. Excuse me if I sound confused, but that's because I am. First, the entire Mesan population and sociopolitical and economic system forms the first layer of the Onion. Second, agreed that many active members of the MAllign's outer layers were left behind, but that they think the slaves are human? Really? Where do you get that notion? The entire MAllign enterprise is built upon the premise that its genetic lines are superior to normal, unimproved humans, and the belief that slaves are the lowest of the lowest is a deeply entrenched part of that belief system. There might be a handful of Jack McBrides among them, but all of them? Really?

Nope. What I said was that there was an outer layer of the Mesan Alignment, constituting about a million people. They aren't representative of the Mesan population in general. They've bought into the Detweiller Vision of genetic uplift for the whole human race, and are very uncomfortable with the notion of genetic slavery. That's a million people in a population of three billion, or a million people in a population of approximately one billion first-class citizens.

There are a lot of places where you can see this if you care to open your eyes and look.

hanuman wrote:5. Jeremy, the Ballroom and the anti-slavery movement as a whole has NEVER accepted the Mesan notion of genetic superiority/inferiority. The movement's entire reason for existing is that slaves are human beings, deserving of the same rights, legal status and treatment as any other human being. No one in the movement will agree to give legal recognition to the MAllign's enterprise to divide the human species on the basis of genetic variation, and neither will anyone in the Grand Alliance. To do so will validate the MAllign's goals and will invalidate any targeted effort to undermine or resist those goals. This is one instance where ideology will uncompromisingly trump pragmatic 'reality'. Whatever political system arises in future, I can guarantee that - just like on Torch - it will in no way or manner contain any provisions to give legal recognition of genetic variation.

Who said anything about genetic inferiority or superiority? I certainly didn't. What I said is that they're comfortable with the idea that various people are better or worse at certain things because of their genetics, which were deliberately designed in.

Equality before the law does not presume either equality in fact or that everyone has the same abilities or needs.

John, I'll respond point by point.

1. When the Beowulf Biological Survey and Parmley Station were first introduced in 'Torch' it was clearly stated that the slavers on the station were part of an entire independent distribution network that operated throughout the Verge. In 'Crown', towards the end, Thandi Palane reflected upon a slave breeding base on a planet (I forget the name) close to Verdant Vista that was only one of many such locations throughout the Verge.

2. Clearly you're not thinking. The planetary government and security services' leadership would in most cases have been the ones to formulate policy and oversee its implementation, but the actual implementation of policy and execution of directives from on high would have been a function of local governmental and security structures. The reason for that is that planet wide or region wide uprisings by the Seccies and slaves were very rare, if they ever happened. Mobilizing the entire planetary security apparatus to respond to each and every localized disturbance would have been prohibitively expensive. The kind of uprising described in 'Cauldron' was a once in a lifetime event, not a commonplace occurance. As such, most local governmental structures will be utterly tainted in the eyes of the former slaves and Seccies, and I strongly doubt that Adm Gold Peak or the Seccie leaders would agree to leave in place officials and functionaries who can use their positions to undermine the efforts of a new interim planetary government.

3. Disagree all you want. It doesn't change the provisions of the Cherwell Convention or those of national law in all of the Grand Alliance's members. Even if Haven or Manticore were inclined to do so, which given the historical context, I highly doubt, neither Beowulf nor Torch will tolerate any recognition of slavery as a legal institution - and that is exactly what Michelle would be doing were she to acquiesce to the prosecution of atrocities against slaves under the Median Constitution's slave protections. And that does not even take into account public opinion in the GA member nations.

4. This time, I'll ask for textev, because I cannot remember seeing anything like that except for a handful of isolated instances.

5. I have no dispute with the points you made here, but my points stand as well.

hanuman wrote:John, I'll respond point by point.

1. When the Beowulf Biological Survey and Parmley Station were first introduced in 'Torch' it was clearly stated that the slavers on the station were part of an entire independent distribution network that operated throughout the Verge. In 'Crown', towards the end, Thandi Palane reflected upon a slave breeding base on a planet (I forget the name) close to Verdant Vista that was only one of many such locations throughout the Verge.

2. Clearly you're not thinking. The planetary government and security services' leadership would in most cases have been the ones to formulate policy and oversee its implementation, but the actual implementation of policy and execution of directives from on high would have been a function of local governmental and security structures. The reason for that is that planet wide or region wide uprisings by the Seccies and slaves were very rare, if they ever happened. Mobilizing the entire planetary security apparatus to respond to each and every localized disturbance would have been prohibitively expensive. The kind of uprising described in 'Cauldron' was a once in a lifetime event, not a commonplace occurance. As such, most local governmental structures will be utterly tainted in the eyes of the former slaves and Seccies, and I strongly doubt that Adm Gold Peak or the Seccie leaders would agree to leave in place officials and functionaries who can use their positions to undermine the efforts of a new interim planetary government.

Where are they going to get the people to do the administration? It's all well and good to say sweep everyone who's got anything to do with the old government out and replace them, but Admiral Gold Peak doesn't have the people to put in place. The seccies don't have the training, and, according to the discussion between Victor and Jurgen, the slaves are incapable of it. There's a place where ideology has to give way to practicality.

hanuman wrote:3. Disagree all you want. It doesn't change the provisions of the Cherwell Convention or those of national law in all of the Grand Alliance's members. Even if Haven or Manticore were inclined to do so, which given the historical context, I highly doubt, neither Beowulf nor Torch will tolerate any recognition of slavery as a legal institution - and that is exactly what Michelle would be doing were she to acquiesce to the prosecution of atrocities against slaves under the Median Constitution's slave protections. And that does not even take into account public opinion in the GA member nations.

I'll say it again. Admiral Gold Peak can't do anything else. She doesn't have the manpower to replace the current administration right down to the last paper-pusher, she doesn't have the manpower to handle the results of all the genetic slaves walking off the job, she doesn't have the manpower to do anything you're suggesting.

Besides, Mesa is not a member of the Solarian League, and did not sign the Cherwell Convention. The Cherwell convention does not apply to Mesa unless Manticore wants to forcibly annex it.

Granted, most of Manticore, Haven and Beowulf would probably prefer that she simply stands back and bombards the planet with a few c-fractional missiles, but realizes that violating the Eradini Edict would not go over well either.

Her original plan was simply to force them to surrender so she could look for the Alignment, and probably to seize the wormhole at the same time. The earliest she can expect reinforcements is a couple of weeks when Manticore sends a task force to Visigoth to seize the junction and send reinforcements through the wormhole.

The earliest Jeremy X and the Torch people can get there is a couple of weeks later, assuming he's gone back to Torch. What's she going to do in the meantime? Sit in orbit and scowl at them real hard? That's not how Gold Peak operates.

hanuman wrote:4. This time, I'll ask for textev, because I cannot remember seeing anything like that except for a handful of isolated instances.

OK. Any mistyping is my error.

Cauldron of Ghosts, Chapter 56 wrote:
Chicherin leaned back in his chair, watching the other members of the General Board, and tried to keep his dismay from showing. He was an alpha-line whose family had been part of the Alignment for generations, and like the vast majority of the Alignment's membership, he'd always hated Manpower and the institution of genetic slavery.

It continues on for several more lengthy paragraphs. I'm not going to quote them here, partly because I don't have them in machine readable and partly because I want to minimize the amount of RFC's copyrighted work I quote.

That's rather obviously not the attitude of the vast majority of Mesa's population, only a small minority. It ought to tell you that the outer part of the Alignment is not the rest of the first-class citizens of Mesa.

hanuman wrote:
5. I have no dispute with the points you made here, but my points stand as well.

I believe what John was saying is that in the short term, the security apparatus and institutions will remain in tact as they are the only ones who have the personnel to govern. Otherwise you have chaos and Michelle has essentially no marines/personnel to take care of the chaos. The Seccies likewise do not have the personnel, nor do they have the institutions set up to govern. Now, who is ultimately in charge obviously changed and therefore the top down POLICIES will change, but to begin with the police who currently are the police, will remain the police.

Now changes to HOW they govern will indeed take place. Now have FAST those changes take place is an entirely different discussion. Unless you just go with the MURPHY chaos theory approach to planetwide governance...

JohnRoth wrote:The earliest Jeremy X and the Torch people can get there is a couple of weeks later, assuming he's gone back to Torch. What's she going to do in the meantime? Sit in orbit and scowl at them real hard? That's not how Gold Peak operates.

Unless he brings the entire population of Torch, you are expecting him to do what?

And having the slaves walk off the job isn't really a problem for the planet, it's when the free citizens walk off the job and the power grid collapses, etc.

Obviously the whole slavery edifice needs to come down, but unless you want a couple of hundred million people killed it will require a pretty clever plan. I think the last 10 years in the middle east have pretty clearly demonstrated that simply overthrowing a dictatorial regime often involves large piles of bodies of innocents and bystanders appearing "unexpectedly".

kzt wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:The earliest Jeremy X and the Torch people can get there is a couple of weeks later, assuming he's gone back to Torch. What's she going to do in the meantime? Sit in orbit and scowl at them real hard? That's not how Gold Peak operates.

Unless he brings the entire population of Torch, you are expecting him to do what?

And having the slaves walk off the job isn't really a problem for the planet, it's when the free citizens walk off the job and the power grid collapses, etc.

Obviously the whole slavery edifice needs to come down, but unless you want a couple of hundred million people killed it will require a pretty clever plan. I think the last 10 years in the middle east have pretty clearly demonstrated that simply overthrowing a dictatorial regime often involves large piles of bodies of innocents and bystanders appearing "unexpectedly".

A better recent example is Korea.

Leadership gone along with the people running the government. Japanese leaving.

In steps a bunch of rookies and power hungry folks. Add a few foreign troops equivalent to Michelle Henke arriving, and viola, we have MESA. 2 different ideals. Communism and Oligarchy/democracy.

End result: A gigantic war.

End result after the war? Dictatorship for 40 years turning into a semi democracy today.

kzt wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:The earliest Jeremy X and the Torch people can get there is a couple of weeks later, assuming he's gone back to Torch. What's she going to do in the meantime? Sit in orbit and scowl at them real hard? That's not how Gold Peak operates.

Unless he brings the entire population of Torch, you are expecting him to do what?

Legitimacy. It's the same situation as the one in Crown of Slaves, where they weren't able to get legitimacy without Jeremy X present and on board.

kzt wrote:And having the slaves walk off the job isn't really a problem for the planet, it's when the free citizens walk off the job and the power grid collapses, etc.

That too.

kzt wrote:Obviously the whole slavery edifice needs to come down, but unless you want a couple of hundred million people killed it will require a pretty clever plan. I think the last 10 years in the middle east have pretty clearly demonstrated that simply overthrowing a dictatorial regime often involves large piles of bodies of innocents and bystanders appearing "unexpectedly".

Yep. My whole point is that when Gold Peak arrives she's going to find a real mess on her hands that she didn't expect, and she's going to have to put a stop-gap solution in place while the heavyweights arrive and begin debating the long-term and the transition plans.

John, I think we've reached an impasse wrt most points, but I wish to return to point 4.

Chichinin is a member of Mesa's Board of Directors as well as, at most, the outermost layer of the MAlign, seeing as he has not been evacuated.

What we see in chapter 56 of 'Cauldron' cannot, in my opinion, be regarded as definite proof of the general attitude of the MAllign's outer layer, since that part of the chapter was entirely an internal reflection by Chichi in, and I rather doubt that he's ever met more than a fraction of those individuals. However, I'll grant that your argument is a possibility, maybe even a probability.

However, whatever their attitudes might have been, I think we need to remember that the organisation they belong to, even if only on the surface, is officially pursuing a future in which genetic slavery will be part and parcel of the galaxy-wide sociopolitical system. The MAllign is in fact in the process of developing the 'prototype' for such a system on Darius, and I've seen no tested that the MAllign - even that part that knows nothing of Darius - ever opposed genetic slavery. In fact, the MAllign clearly used Manpower and slavery as just one more layer of the Onion, with no regard for the suffering that the institution had inflicted upon millions of human beings over the centuries. Not the kind of people I'd want in charge when it comes to dismantling slavery and helping slaves adjust to being free.

Starting the "prototype" system at Darius with the "slaves" not knowing that they are slaves and that the government that appears (to the "slave" population) run the planet is actually run from behind the curtin by the Alignment makes for some fun speculation.

It runs into a major snag when you try to impliment it on all the other human inhabited planets, systems and other things in the known universe. There is that "minor" problem of all the living people who know about things like freedom and other types of government and have not been fed the Darius program since birth.
The Alignment doesn't really care about the rest of the humans -now living or to be alive in the future- except as a base to create it's version of Utopia. Kill off billions on thousands of planets? No problem- in batches from 1 to 2,000,000,000 is all the same to them. Totaly destroying the enviorments of the same planet to do the killing, not so much.
For an ideal process, none of the now living would reproduce except as directed by the Alignment. Eventualy all the now living people will die off (those with Prolong will take a bit longer unless they are "helped along" but once the Alignment sucessfully inserts it's moral, ethical, political and military precepts into ALL of the planitary systems it will control, it will have the cooperation of the populations in moving forward to a position of "Of course we will have our children, fully crafted by the Population Bureau from the "appropriate genes with needed modifications presented to us as new infants straight from the artifical wombs"
How could it be otherwise?

The situation on Darius is just one more more-or-less semi-perminant piece of the plan. This provides a willing and trained workforce- who don't know they are slaves and don't have any concept of slavery- to produce the equipment, weapons, and provide the infrastructure to support the Star Lines in the manner they are deserve to be until the Alignment can take it's rightfull place as the owners and Gods of the Universe.

Could get really messy as the Alignment eventually starts cleansing the rest of Humanity since the Alignment needs the planets and, give the ability to grow the "proper" forms of humans to meet its needs, they don't really need Normals even to produce more people.