Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold

The lady in the story was not killing children. She supported a side she believed righteous. She passed messages from her brother to Zion.

Her brother distributed stolen black powder to the suicide bombers. Her brother killed his cousin. He did so because he believed his brother's cause was fundamentally evil or led to evil. Something akin to Germans fighting the Third Reich during WWII. Resisting what one believes to be evil is the primary responsibility of a good man or good woman.

Yes, we both, you and I, disagree with what the GoGA is trying to do. We both think that those opposing Charis support evil goals. Discounting all of the motivations of the opposition as stemming from evil or mental illness is to view all of them as less than human or less than rational or in some ways unworthy of a fundamental consideration one gives to any human being.

That sort of intolerance allows people like Clyntahn to send suicide bombers to kill innocent civilians as if their lives mattered less than human beings that agreed with his own beliefs. War calls for good human beings on both sides to do bad things. Acknowledging that and trying to mitigate it as much as possible means that both sides recognize those admirable qualities of the other. Conviction and commitment are admirable regardless of the side they serve.

Isilith wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Does conviction not merit something more than being called a pyschopath? Strong conviction and strong faith even when those convictions and faith are not shared are worthy of recognition and respect. Otherwise its oh so easy to demonize those that disagree and hold those disagreement powerfully. Especially in times of war.

Uh, no they don't merit respect. She KNOWS her brother just killed himself, a cousin that was raised WITH HER as a brother, and God only knows how many other people. Trying to justify actions like that isn't conviction, it is a mental illness.

That is like saying "respect the suicide bombers" as they blow up busloads of kids.

Isilith wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Does conviction not merit something more than being called a pyschopath? Strong conviction and strong faith even when those convictions and faith are not shared are worthy of recognition and respect. Otherwise its oh so easy to demonize those that disagree and hold those disagreement powerfully. Especially in times of war.

Uh, no they don't merit respect. She KNOWS her brother just killed himself, a cousin that was raised WITH HER as a brother, and God only knows how many other people. Trying to justify actions like that isn't conviction, it is a mental illness.

That is like saying "respect the suicide bombers" as they blow up busloads of kids.

I think you'd have to have something like, you know, kids among the victims before it was too much like that.

If you put aside the side she was on for a moment, she was praying for her brother who'd done a very difficult, trying thing in the service of what he and she valued supremely. If her brother were instead a loyal Chisholmian working secretly in St. Kylmahn's who'd stolen Temple designs and gave the Allies critical information, who'd then had to kill a dear (if misguided) friend and blow the place up, I suspect you'd be viewing him as a hero and her little less of one.

Mind you, what they both did was treason, and (if you're not part of a successful-enough rebellion, anyway) that does generally call for the most extreme penalties anyone dishes out. It'd be suitable and fitting for it to come to that, but I can forego gleeful anticipation.

I'm not going to be a defender of strong faith and conviction either, although maybe for different reasons. All they do is help you go further in whatever direction - if they're not firmly yoked to, or replaced by, reason and compassion, they're likely to take you further off in a wrong direction. I'll have the same misgivings about the care, planning, patience, and skill with which a serial killer goes about murder. The sloppy well-meaning sorts are far better to have around, and I'm confident good sense and decency can do a much better job avoiding demonization than praising open doors to extremism.

I stand by my assertion she is a tragic figure.

She is a good person doing what she sees as her duty to God. That her belief is being taken advantage of by people less worthy than she really doesn't change that.

To be sure she is misguided. Call it treason? Yes. Execute her? I doubt that it will happen. I wouldn't. But it is an understandable point of view.

Don

JeffEngel wrote:

Isilith wrote:Uh, no they don't merit respect. She KNOWS her brother just killed himself, a cousin that was raised WITH HER as a brother, and God only knows how many other people. Trying to justify actions like that isn't conviction, it is a mental illness.

That is like saying "respect the suicide bombers" as they blow up busloads of kids.

I think you'd have to have something like, you know, kids among the victims before it was too much like that.

I know I'm going to regret getting in the middle of this, but I have to point out that there were kids among the victims of the bombs set off in public places, bombs which the brother knew were going to be made from the explosives he supplied. Those bombings cannot be described as anything other than terrorism.

I don't wish to comment on any other part of the discussion at this time.

JeffEngel wrote:

Isilith wrote:Uh, no they don't merit respect. She KNOWS her brother just killed himself, a cousin that was raised WITH HER as a brother, and God only knows how many other people. Trying to justify actions like that isn't conviction, it is a mental illness.

That is like saying "respect the suicide bombers" as they blow up busloads of kids.

I think you'd have to have something like, you know, kids among the victims before it was too much like that.

SWM wrote:I know I'm going to regret getting in the middle of this, but I have to point out that there were kids among the victims of the bombs set off in public places, bombs which the brother knew were going to be made from the explosives he supplied. Those bombings cannot be described as anything other than terrorism.

Good point. I'd just been thinking in terms of the Hairatha explosion itself - it'd been all that had been brought up here so far, that and the espionage.

I think some of you are making wild assumptions about my motives. I don't hate her, I don't want her to suffer... I said I was looking forward to her meeting the royal executioner. Which is what her actions, and the consequences of her actions, say she DESERVES.

By her actions, she has helped bring about the death and suffering of THOUSANDS of innocents. I don't care what her convictions were, that is evil, and the world will be a better place without that kind of mentality.

To the person who tried to do the "If someone did what she did in support of Charis, they would be a hero"... ummmm, no. Charis has never even thought about committing atrocities against innocents, and acts of terror against civilian targets. So that is an absolute red herring. But, to answer it, if someone on the side of the EoC committed acts that led up to the same, they would not be considered a hero. Not even by the characters in the books.

Isilith wrote:I think some of you are making wild assumptions about my motives. I don't hate her, I don't want her to suffer... I said I was looking forward to her meeting the royal executioner. Which is what her actions, and the consequences of her actions, say she DESERVES.

By her actions, she has helped bring about the death and suffering of THOUSANDS of innocents. I don't care what her convictions were, that is evil, and the world will be a better place without that kind of mentality.

To the person who tried to do the "If someone did what she did in support of Charis, they would be a hero"... ummmm, no. Charis has never even thought about committing atrocities against innocents, and acts of terror against civilian targets. So that is an absolute red herring. But, to answer it, if someone on the side of the EoC committed acts that led up to the same, they would not be considered a hero. Not even by the characters in the books.

But someone is doing what she is doing in support of Charis. Not only is Merlin gathering info through the snarcs, Nynian has her covert network. In fact, the allies intel network leaves the other side in the dust.

The lady didn't cause the death of thousands. Her brother did. She may have passed a message from Zion to her brother, but we don't even know that for sure. And if she did, I'm sure she had no idea what was going to happen.

The lady is guilty of treason. The common penalty for that is death. I wouldn't exact it in her case, but your point of view is understandable. Maybe it's best all around if I'm not making the decision.

Don

It seems to me, in a philosophical way, that going to war is nothing but terrorism to impress your thoughts on someone else.

I still like the books though...

PeterZ wrote:Does conviction not merit something more than being called a pyschopath? Strong conviction and strong faith even when those convictions and faith are not shared are worthy of recognition and respect.

Strong conviction and faith in the service of a bad cause are one of the most damaging things in the history of humanity. No, they do not in and of themselves deserve respect. They deserve respect *only* in the context of the justification that exists for holding and applying them.

gcomeau wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Does conviction not merit something more than being called a pyschopath? Strong conviction and strong faith even when those convictions and faith are not shared are worthy of recognition and respect.

Strong conviction and faith in the service of a bad cause are one of the most damaging things in the history of humanity. No, they do not in and of themselves deserve respect. They deserve respect *only* in the context of the justification that exists for holding and applying them.

Agreed. The difficulty here is that humanity almost never agrees on what a good cause looks like. In most conflicts, there are good people acting in good faith on both sides. What is happening on Safehold rather vividly demonstrates that.

Don