BC(P)

kzt wrote:Using Mk-16s means you are going to be receiving marginally effective return fire from the SDs.

How so? The scenario was specified as NOT IAN or RHN (NOT GSN or RMN is apparently assumed, as they're definitely friendlies)

That means that even with Cataphracts, Scientist, Vega, or other pre-first-war SDs are going to be grossly out-ranged by Mk-16Gs. even without a ballistic phase.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

Jonathan_S wrote:Sure Aggies can beat up on anybody with MDMs/DDMs - especially if they have crappy missile defense.
But I think even there you're overstating their effectiveness. It's more deadly than any pre-pod SD; but it's not capble of taking out 16-20 SDs - not unless they came at it one by one without any mutual support.

For each pod salvo it rolls it can fire 4*14 = 56 Mk16s, and it can IIRC quad stack salvos. So up to 224 missiles at a time.
Very impressive, but fired against 16 Sphinx class SDs in a wall of battle they're flying into the face of 432 CM tubes, and 496 PDLCs. If those are pre-war defenses with no updates then the ECM power and the terminal velocity will be big surprises and outside the designed scope; but that's still a wall of CMs to get through. You're not likely to knock out an SD first salvo; you'll need to grind down their defenses.

But you've only got 20 (and a tad) quad-stack salvos worth of pods.
...

... and enough range to keep anyone without MDM's from ever getting close enough to fight back. Let's look at those quad stacked salvos, times two. Keep in mind how few missiles the SLN as able to stop with 70 SD's, etc.

That's 4x4x14 (x2 Aggies) missiles per stack, less ECM, call it 300 shipkiller -16G's per stack. Pick two non-Haven/non IAN's SD's per salvo, in eight salvo's you've likely put a pretty good hurt on 16 SD's. At that point, you've fired about half of your available loadout for the two ships. Now you start cleaning up the leftovers and any undamaged ships with smaller salvos. Still think the SDs would survive long enought to close before the BC(P)'s shot themselves dry?

Wasn't the original scenario a single Aggie taking out 16+ SDs?

If you double that to 2 Aggies then yeah, they're going to be more than twice as effective when working together and are far more likely to knock out 16+ old SDs.

...
Wasn't the original scenario a single Aggie taking out 16+ SDs?

If you double that to 2 Aggies then yeah, they're going to be more than twice as effective when working together and are far more likely to knock out 16+ old SDs.

See what I get for thinking with one side of my brain and typing with the other?

Correct -- I'd always been thinking two Aggies in mutual support counter-missile wise and bigger stacked salvos. That said, my "current tactical evolution" against the SLN, etc. would do something a bit unusual and try to hit more ships with smaller salvos simply on the theory that the -G is such a heavy hitter.

Picture just two Aggies in action at Spindle for example, given that Crandall's ships only stopped about 10% of the missile fire, and that's without any sneaky ballistic phases to screw with the counterfire timing even more. So, the 4x4x14x2 salvo with 300 shipkillers, why not judiciously select and hit 4-5 SD's really hard with maybe 60-70 missiles apiece.. Next salvo picks and hits 4 more, third stack hits 4 more, you've hit 12 SD's in the space of a couple of minutes and the op force has NO idea who you're shooting at next.

The attrition on command decks, shipkiller tubes, and SLN egos seems like it would have had the same ultimate effect before the attack force would have moved very far. Once the formation's combined defenses are filled with holes, then start salvoing higher quantities for kills... and then the SD's start dying in double chunks.

"Admiral, they're hitting us with just two ships...." but oops, Admiral so and so is dead. Thoughts?

Weird Harold wrote:So, what you're saying is the 800 Kilo Gorilla everyone has been scared of is more a 400 lb Mall Cop?

I think that is unfair to 400 lb Mall Cops as most of them know when they can not win a fight.

OK, one little thing I have been meaning to point out (and I am just as guilty as anyone else).

We have been discussing using BCs on SDs. BCs, no matter how nasty, should never be planned to go against SDs on their own. This is the hubris that led to Solon and IRL Jutland. Just because the current munitions in the BCs can counter a SD isn’t a reason to field, or plan on fielding, BCs as an SD counter except in desperation. It may work – this time. But when it does go wrong, everything will go wrong. Spindle was an example of a desperate situation – had the SD(p)s made it to Spindle in time, it would be them controlling the missile salvos, NOT 12 CAs – so it’s example should not be discussed as a primary tactic.

Instead, we should be discussing BC(p)s where they should be working – against the FF forces. How many DD flotillias can 1 BC(p) slap aside, or how many Gladiator CAs can a BC(p) run down. Or more importantly – what is the appropriate ratio of BC(p) to SLN BCs (for 0 RMN losses)

However, if a Battle Fleet SD just happens to make a surprise inspection of a system while a BC(p) chases a frantic SLN DD towards the hyper limit, that SD just may decide it picked the wrong day to play war.

Theemile wrote:Instead, we should be discussing BC(p)s where they should be working – against the FF forces. How many DD flotillias can 1 BC(p) slap aside, or how many Gladiator CAs can a BC(p) run down. Or more importantly – what is the appropriate ratio of BC(p) to SLN BCs (for 0 RMN losses)

However, if a Battle Fleet SD just happens to make a surprise inspection of a system while a BC(p) chases a frantic SLN DD towards the hyper limit, that SD just may decide it picked the wrong day to play war.

Hmm, what were the numbers again for the total missiles fired, versus total missiles stopped by Crandall's Fleet? Her SD's had a minimal 'screen' but they had one, so when you account that the SD's probably contributed just as much as the screen (I think it was pretty close to 1:1 screen to waller).

If you knock out the SDs, and reduce the BC(p) to just 1 solo unit, or let's say a division (because Manticore, and the White Haven administrations, civilian and space lord are not stupid). Depending on the missile takedown ratio against SDs+screen, and then a division vs screen units only, I'd say the division of BCp's would be capable of upto a full squadron of FF/BF battlecruisers, with their screen of a squadron of heavy cruisers. Perhaps double that, if they were able to keep control of range and had full rails of pods.

Theemile wrote:We have been discussing using BCs on SDs. BCs, no matter how nasty, should never be planned to go against SDs on their own. This is the hubris that led to Solon and IRL Jutland. Just because the current munitions in the BCs can counter a SD isn’t a reason to field, or plan on fielding, BCs as an SD counter except in desperation. It may work – this time. But when it does go wrong, everything will go wrong. Spindle was an example of a desperate situation – had the SD(p)s made it to Spindle in time, it would be them controlling the missile salvos, NOT 12 CAs – so it’s example should not be discussed as a primary tactic.

True, but to push back, consider home fleet at BOM composed of an equal weight of BC(P)s instead of SDs. How much damage would 300 or so BC(P)s have inflicted on 2nd fleet? They would have all died, but it's not like anyone in the SDs or SD(P)s of home fleet made it out alive either.

JeffEngel wrote:snip

Sometimes - in Battle Fleet - it poses in front of the mirror with a well-shined gun and goes bang-bang at imaginary enemies.

snip

Which well shined gun they hold sideways all gangsta style, and think they are the toughest guys on the block.

kzt wrote:

Theemile wrote:We have been discussing using BCs on SDs. BCs, no matter how nasty, should never be planned to go against SDs on their own. This is the hubris that led to Solon and IRL Jutland. Just because the current munitions in the BCs can counter a SD isn’t a reason to field, or plan on fielding, BCs as an SD counter except in desperation. It may work – this time. But when it does go wrong, everything will go wrong. Spindle was an example of a desperate situation – had the SD(p)s made it to Spindle in time, it would be them controlling the missile salvos, NOT 12 CAs – so it’s example should not be discussed as a primary tactic.

True, but to push back, consider home fleet at BOM composed of an equal weight of BC(P)s instead of SDs. How much damage would 300 or so BC(P)s have inflicted on 2nd fleet? They would have all died, but it's not like anyone in the SDs or SD(P)s of home fleet made it out alive either.

If memory serves, there were ~24 BC(p)s with Home fleet - each with more control links than 2 classic SDs which were waiting to be decommissioned. If we were to replace just the ~47 SDs with their weight of BC(p) - (4:1), that would give us 188 more BC(p)s, which (assuming that each BC(p) has ~250 control channels) would double the throw weight of Home Fleet.

In which case 2nd fleet would be toast, the increased missile storm overwhelming their CM capability. No doubt some ships would come out of the missile storm, but it would be a broken, useless force.

The increased CM capability of the off-bore firing, wedge turned BC(p)s of Home fleet would probably assure there were some survivors of the initial fire storm, But at best home fleet would look like Kusak's 3rd fleet did after the battle, Hollow and beaten

Somtaaw wrote:

Hutch wrote:Somtaaw. Theemile, I have no disagreement with you here. I am simply pointing out that we've been 'spoiled' by seeing the Nike's in Talbott in action during Storm from the Shadows, Misson of Honor, and Shadow of Freedom, while the Aggies and Reliants have presumably been stooging around in Silesia or elesewhere. But there is a very limited number of those Nikes' and given the missions coming up for the RMN, I suspect we'll see more of those 'older' BC's in the next book.

Of course, I could be wrong. I remember being wrong in 2002...

Heh, something we can all probably say, being wrong once or twice (or maybe more ).

I personally think the majority of the Aggies would have been shifted towards Silesia, or other low-danger areas. And with the SLN about to embark on commerce raiding, those poor Sollies aren't going to know what to do.

And yeah, what few Nike-class that are fielded, are in the high threat zones. For that matter, my belief that Eighth Fleet might have gotten Nike's could actually be the same ones that ended up in Tenth Fleet.

After all, the Nike's are true warships, and don't have all that much of a peace-times application. Bigger than most Battleships, designed more like a small Dreadnought (slightly heavy on missiles, but good sized energy banks), even with battlecruiser legs it's a ship designed almost purely for war. And IIRC the crew automation built into the Nike's was even more drastic than what was used on the Aggy, so she's got at best the same crew for a ship that's 30% larger without the "advantage" of low-maintenance pod rails to upkeep.

In SftS the distro of Aggies was: 8th Fleet and Home Fleet for all of them; the majority of the Nikes were supposed to be split mostly between 9th and 10th Fleet as they came into service. Mostly 9th (Silesia) until Monica.

Solon was close in time to Monica; until Solon, no one had any real data on just how fragile the Aggies would turn out to be (and it was partly adding in the Keyhole that thinned the armor). During Filarta's Follies, the Aggies were sent to Gryphon along with the cruisers; they haven't been relegated to secondary duties yet, so far as I can tell.

I think if you compare the Aggie to the previous-class Reliants, it comes across as a strongly built ship; but comparing it to the Nike (which has SD-class armoring and compartmentalization) makes its BC-class armoring look thin.

YMMV.

Regards, Rob