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Re: Is Chisholm really an equal part of the Charisian empire
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:29 am

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Bother, you beat me to it.

One of the things that I find intriguing about Irys is her love of knowledge for its own sake. The elements she found most tempting about Charis prior to her epiphany was the Royal College. While her father might have envied the RC for the advantages it could provide, she appreciated the brighter and fuller picture of the world the College makes possible.

That approach/mindset might well be something core to Corsiandian society or might just be intrinsic to Irys. I doubt the latter. It seems that all the out islands had some core divergence from the CoGA orthodoxy. Emerald, Chisholm, Corisande and Zebediah all embraced the Reformists rather quickly compared to the mainland. That speaks to Clyntahn's fear that the out islands are indeed more independent of thought in various ways. I doubt Corisdande is the exception.

Charisian innovation had always struck me as an extension of Cayleb's personality. Perhaps better to say that Cayleb embraced the Charisian mind set that enabled innovation. That of Thomas Eddison, an experimenting engineer using trial and error to find a better way. The value of knowledge to this mindset is what that knowledge can make or do. Corisande might be more comfortable with knowledge as valuable because it allows for understanding. Whether that understanding is as Irys described before her epiphany in pursuit of understanding God's creation better or simply understanding to understand, it is different from the hectic Charisian desire to always use knowledge for something.

There are plenty of ways that each of the Imperial nations to separate from the Charisian dominance. I suspect that Chisholm and Tarot will be the Imperial conservatives. That mindset demanding that any changes be tested prior to will he nil he embracing their adoption. Emerald will be the deal makers and real politicians. Their decades long experience balancing Charis and Corisande will come in handy. Eventually, like in any family, should an outsider pick on one, they will get a unified well thought out, well engineered and politically well placed traditional military fist in their national overly intrusive nose.

JeffEngel wrote:All the other Out Islands knew for years that Charis' Royal College gave them an edge, and that it put them on the Temple's suspect list. Hektor would've loved to have one, but for his need to play the role of the Church's one true orthodox champion out there. I'm sure similar thoughts went through Nahrmahn's and Gorjah's heads. (And Sharleyan's and her father's as well, but they had enough troubles keeping their own nobles in line to gamble with that, whatever Zion thought.)

That attitude is going to take some time to coax out of hiding. That coaxing is certainly going on in Chisholm, Emerald, and Tarot by now. Corisande's had to suffer a bit from the associations among innovation, Charis, and defeat more than the others, but it does have going for it two things: the object, painful lesson of what being behind the times gets you, and Irys' enthusiasm for learning.

I look forward to Royal Colleges elsewhere in the Empire, but that's just the visible face of a whole complex of social changes embracing innovation. Craftsmen and factory owners trying new things and taking advantage of better communications, patents, and standards of weights and measures aren't nearly so dramatic, but they make that progress on a broader, grassroots level. That end of the campaign is coming along nicely, if quietly.
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Re: Is Chisholm really an equal part of the Charisian empire
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:56 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Bother, you beat me to it.

One of the things that I find intriguing about Irys is her love of knowledge for its own sake. The elements she found most tempting about Charis prior to her epiphany was the Royal College. While her father might have envied the RC for the advantages it could provide, she appreciated the brighter and fuller picture of the world the College makes possible.
Prince Hektor suffered a certain narrowness of vision, maybe narrowness of spirit even. There was the Great Game and advance of the Daykyn dynasty and all else sort of faded into a background that didn't draw his attention. His relationship with his son was in terms of the dynasty, up until his dying moments. His relationship with the Church was all in terms of avoiding its ire and using it to advance his position. His relationship with Corisande was its use to advance his ambitions as his base; with Zebediah, as a conquest; with Chisholm, Charis, Emerald, all as tools or potential conquests.

One tremendous blessing of giving up sovereignty for the children of the House of Daykyn is that they are now only supporting players in the Game, so they're free to see the wonder of the world, to evaluate the Church in terms of truth and compassion, to improve the state of Corisande for the sake of Corisande instead of for dynastic advance. Daivyn's young but I think he at least appreciates that dimly. Irys is going to grab it and run with it.

That approach/mindset might well be something core to Corsiandian society or might just be intrinsic to Irys. I doubt the latter. It seems that all the out islands had some core divergence from the CoGA orthodoxy. Emerald, Chisholm, Corisande and Zebediah all embraced the Reformists rather quickly compared to the mainland. That speaks to Clyntahn's fear that the out islands are indeed more independent of thought in various ways. I doubt Corisdande is the exception.
Me too. Zebediah's one of the briefest but clearest cases of it: a vicious aristocracy, a top tier of the priesthood in support of it - and a working priesthood joined with the mass of the people who embrace a Reformed church that's all about providing what people need. As soon as the new Grand Duke fixed the top end, the whole thing becomes a zealously Reformist state.

Corisande's nobles aren't all that bad (some are!), and it's got the sour taste of coming into the Church and Empire of Charis after defeat to get past, but that line drawn between the Temple and its local weasels and the local, working Church isn't unfamiliar there, and Corisande knows which side of the line it's on. In a lot of ways, it's not hard to picture it as Charis but for the (former) leadership.

Emerald is even more that. The "Charisian Archipelago" has four major islands or near-islands: Charis, Margaret's Land, Emerald, and Silverlode. The Ahrmahk's gobbled up Charis, annexed Margaret's Land, and claimed Silverlode outright. Emerald was next, Nahrmahn knew it, and was just making an ambitious bid to retain independence. There's no reason to think that Charisian attitudes didn't "infect" Emerald long since; Nahrmahn and his senior advisers clearly had no powerful loyalty to the Temple. They had no problem with the Church that wasn't a problem with its (distant) leadership; Nahrmahn regretted the stupidity the Temple had in throwing away the moral leadership it could have commanded.

There's an argument that Tarot could be the fifth major island in the Charisian Archipelago. The old treaty at least felt on Gorjah's end like Ahrmahk imperialism, and with their history, it's hard to blame him.

Chisholm is a trickier case than the rest. It's got a lot more history of conflict between the nobility and the crown than the rest of them, and the traditionalist guilds may be more powerful there as another faction than elsewhere. Temple Loyalist nobles seem more common there than anywhere but Corisande, and they seem to be Temple Loyalist more as a matter of genuine conviction somewhat more often than their Corisandian peers. I don't think Reformism or innovation will suffer badly or lag grievously behind in Chisholm, but I do think it's going to line up with a longer and deeper class struggle there than in the other islands.
Charisian innovation had always struck me as an extension of Cayleb's personality. Perhaps better to say that Cayleb embraced the Charisian mind set that enabled innovation.
I'd say, rather, that he's a child of the same culture and time - and having spent just about none of his adult life looking to Zion for political or spiritual leadership does make him almost unique among the movers and shakers of Charis, so that he's got nothing holding him back that way.
That of Thomas Eddison, an experimenting engineer using trial and error to find a better way. The value of knowledge to this mindset is what that knowledge can make or do. Corisande might be more comfortable with knowledge as valuable because it allows for understanding. Whether that understanding is as Irys described before her epiphany in pursuit of understanding God's creation better or simply understanding to understand, it is different from the hectic Charisian desire to always use knowledge for something.
I'd hesitate to draw profiles of entire nations from two young adults. The Royal College faculty have mindsets that typically run more to Irys's that way, and I'm sure plenty of Corisandian smiths, plumbers, farmers and doctors are thrilled about knowledge for the sake of doing things better. Cayleb was, before Merlin, already someone who ran from tutors to armsmasters and since then uses an artificial intelligence to track baseball scores. He may not be oblivious to the wonder of nature, but purely on a personal level, it's not his strong suit.
There are plenty of ways that each of the Imperial nations to separate from the Charisian dominance. I suspect that Chisholm and Tarot will be the Imperial conservatives. That mindset demanding that any changes be tested prior to will he nil he embracing their adoption. Emerald will be the deal makers and real politicians. Their decades long experience balancing Charis and Corisande will come in handy. Eventually, like in any family, should an outsider pick on one, they will get a unified well thought out, well engineered and politically well placed traditional military fist in their national overly intrusive nose.

I wouldn't see national personalities playing out so neatly over entire nations in the Empire, but I can easily see dynamics like that in the Imperial Parliament. The Chisholmian noble and notables are likely to be representatives of Chisholm's conservative side, and Tarot's influence from the mainland may have a similar effect. (That's way out on a speculative limb though.) A kind of kingmaker, negotiating hub role would suit the position and personalities of the House of Baytz. And Corisande can carve out a political role making sure Charisian advances get spread around the empire consistently and that Chisholm's nobility keeps in line.
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Re: Is Chisholm really an equal part of the Charisian empire
Post by chrisd   » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:12 pm

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n7axw wrote:Hi SonicShane97,

Welcome to the forums. We hope you enjoy yourself here. You are invited to belly up to the virtual bar for the virtual drink of your choice. It's on the house!

Probably the strongest argument in favor of regarding Old Charis the senior partner is the difference in their economies. The throne is committed to changing that, but how it will work out remains to be seen.

I think if I had been naming the new empire, I would have called it the Empire of the Seas.

Don


A long while ago I did suggest "Oceania" for the combined Empire - tied together by sea.
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Re: Is Chisholm really an equal part of the Charisian empire
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:32 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:quote="Keith_w" quote="n7axw"I think if I had been naming the new empire, I would have called it the Empire of the Seas.

Don

Empire of the "C"s? Charis, Chisholm and Corrisande? :)

Ok, so they have to change Tarot's name. Carot? Carrot? /quote

Ctarot! As Safehold games go, it's not outlandish.


Gotta do Cemerald too. Forgot that in my original post. :oops:
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Re: Is Chisholm really an equal part of the Charisian empire
Post by jchilds   » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:12 am

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Keith_w wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:quote="Keith_w" quote="n7axw"I think if I had been naming the new empire, I would have called it the Empire of the Seas.

Don

Empire of the "C"s? Charis, Chisholm and Corrisande? :)

Ok, so they have to change Tarot's name. Carot? Carrot? /quote

Ctarot! As Safehold games go, it's not outlandish.


Gotta do Cemerald too. Forgot that in my original post. :oops:


If "C"s are the way things go, I guess that means the Raven Lords aren't joining up with the Empire. I suspect they'd object to "The Lands of the Craven Lords" and "Craven's Land" for some reason... :lol:
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Re: Is Chisholm really an equal part of the Charisian empire
Post by Keith_w   » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:49 am

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jchilds wrote: quote="Keith_w" quote="JeffEngel" quote="Keith_w" quote="n7axw"I think if I had been naming the new empire, I would have called it the Empire of the Seas.

Don

Empire of the "C"s? Charis, Chisholm and Corrisande? :)

Ok, so they have to change Tarot's name. Carot? Carrot? /quote

Ctarot! As Safehold games go, it's not outlandish./quote ]

Gotta do Cemerald too. Forgot that in my original post. :oops: /quote

If "C"s are the way things go, I guess that means the Raven Lords aren't joining up with the Empire. I suspect they'd object to "The Lands of the Craven Lords" and "Craven's Land" for some reason... :lol:


Good Point.
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Re: Is Chisholm really an equal part of the Charisian empire
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:09 am

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jchilds wrote:
If "C"s are the way things go, I guess that means the Raven Lords aren't joining up with the Empire. I suspect they'd object to "The Lands of the Craven Lords" and "Craven's Land" for some reason... :lol:

Their 'c' can be silent and invisible. It's a small concession to make.
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Re: Is Chisholm really an equal part of the Charisian empire
Post by eldrwyrm   » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:56 pm

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To get back to the original question.
Chisolm is an "equal in the eyes of the law" partner. This is an absolutely necessary starting point, but is not enough to keep them equal. As I see it, Chisolm will be a junior partner in fact until such time as they can contribute equally to the economy of the empire. Theoretically they are currently providing the bulk of the army, in the same way that Old Charis provides the bulk of the navy. This will go a long way toward keeping them at the top of the heap of junior partners in the empire. However, I could see Corrisand challenging that position if they are the first of the constituent states to establish a "royal college" in friendly competition with Old Charis.
Chisolm has the advantage of Sharley pushing for economic development, but she does have significant push-back on that front from her powerful nobles. I think Corrisand has the opportunity to pull ahead on that front. The nobles most likely to challenge the crown on modernizing industry in Corrisand were by and large affiliated with the Northern Conspiracy. Phillip Osgood is smart enough to see the advantages that could accrue to the princedom if Davyn pushes for economic and production development. If Irys simultaneously pushes for creation of a royal college, I could easily see a situation where Corrisand becomes a more important member state than Chisolm. The only real defense that Chisolm would have in that case would be the fact that they are an official co-capital and home of the empress.
It might actually be worth it for Cayleb to encourage Corrisand as a means to spur competition in Chisolm.
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Re: Is Chisholm really an equal part of the Charisian empire
Post by McGuiness   » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:48 pm

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There were some pretty clear hints in LaMA that at least one of the powerful Chisholmian nobles is going to be caught with his hand in the cookie jar, so we can probably expect an object lesson via beheading that will cause the rest of the nobility to toe the line. It worked wonderfully in Zebediah after all!

My apologies to those with tender sensibilities, so if you don't want to possibly be offended (or have a good laugh) skip the rest of this post!)

As I heard once, "When you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow..." :lol:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Is Chisholm really an equal part of the Charisian empire
Post by Louis R   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:10 am

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Bad 'wolf! No biscuit today!

Direwolf18 wrote:
< snip >

with Green Valley being an out-liar. Cause he is cheating.

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