Artillery Effectiveness?

n7axw wrote:I wonder how vulnerable they would be to the lightning dragons...(reds or blacks???). I have an uneasy feeling that it would be very...

While it is impossible to say what will happen for sure (this is a different world), electricity tends to travel on the outside of a metal vehicle leaving the crew unharmed. If the electricity has a path to the interior of the vehicle then it could very well cause catastrophic damage to crew and vehicle. Another possibility us that the current is strong enough that it could fuse bearings, rendering a Bison immobile. The sharonians have no electronics so they won't be a concern.

tonyz wrote:I expect that Bisons can tow guns (if they can tow anything else, like cargo wagons, they can also tow guns), but I don't see the Sharonans as quite ready yet to mount guns on armored vehicles.

If the sharonians decide to mount guns it will likely be on the trailers, Mules I believe they are called, that the Bisons haul, not on the Bisons themselves. The trailers will have a lot more leeway in how they can be modified (they don't have lots of space taken up by machinery). Also the Mules will be able to mount heavier pieces and possibly turrets to protect them. Overall it will be a much easier job, although you will have to deal with the smokestack blocking some of your forward view.

n7axw wrote:All of the pieces are already in place for a tank, by which I mean to suggest, there is no technical obstacle that I can see to building one.

I can see some real utility to tanks used against infantry armed with arbalasts, gryphons or even the light artillery that the Arcanans use with infantry.

I'm not sure we've seen engines of the necessary power density and fuel efficiency to make useful tanks.

Needing very physically large engines to move a tank with any real armor across hostile terrain starts a bad feedback loop. Larger engine means a bigger chassis, which requires more weight of armor for desired protection, which required more power, and the loop continues.

And, unless you're intending to use the tanks almost exclusively for portal assaults, the distances necessary for them to move vastly exceed what the WWI tanks had to do on the Western Front. So you need mechanical reliability and range that didn't exist until 3rd or 4th gen tanks here on Earth (basically WWII era).

So I'm not so optimistic about descent tanks making a showing anytime soon.

Jonathan_S wrote:

n7axw wrote:All of the pieces are already in place for a tank, by which I mean to suggest, there is no technical obstacle that I can see to building one.

I can see some real utility to tanks used against infantry armed with arbalasts, gryphons or even the light artillery that the Arcanans use with infantry.

I'm not sure we've seen engines of the necessary power density and fuel efficiency to make useful tanks.

Needing very physically large engines to move a tank with any real armor across hostile terrain starts a bad feedback loop. Larger engine means a bigger chassis, which requires more weight of armor for desired protection, which required more power, and the loop continues.

And, unless you're intending to use the tanks almost exclusively for portal assaults, the distances necessary for them to move vastly exceed what the WWI tanks had to do on the Western Front. So you need mechanical reliability and range that didn't exist until 3rd or 4th gen tanks here on Earth (basically WWII era).

So I'm not so optimistic about descent tanks making a showing anytime soon.

You could be right. But consider. First, they are already using those bison. Would they be able to armor the same chassis and add a few machine guns and a light cannon?

Secondly, most of the distance they would have to travel would be on rail. It is my impression that they are going to be laying rail toward Hell's gate as fast as they can.


Thirdly, they are already experimenting with internal combustion engines.

Finally, I'm certainly not expecting tanks to show up tomorrow. I am only pointing out that given the state of Arcanan infantry, tanks would be useful. Further, sinse steam tech is no longer in its infancy, the barriers to building tanks is probably not out of Sharona's reach.

Don

Sharona appears to have taken the reliability and power of their steam engines farther then Earth did at their approximate technology level. I would advise against assuming that their technology is equal to that of Earth circa 1890-1900.

At the moment, they don't need to mount artillery on Bisons -- machine guns will be perfectly adequate for a good deal of anti-dragon work. Mortars and the heavier guns can be towed along and set up as needed.

tonyz wrote:At the moment, they don't need to mount artillery on Bisons -- machine guns will be perfectly adequate for a good deal of anti-dragon work. Mortars and the heavier guns can be towed along and set up as needed.

I'm thinking more in terms of dealing with infantry than dragons. What we have not seen yet is a set piece battle in the open with neither side forted up. Given Sharona's ability to supply heavy forces by rail, one would think that would give them an advantage. But that does remain to be seen.

I'm not sure that given the fluidity of a battle in the open that there would always be time to set up towed weapons. Rifles and machine guns, of course, are another matter. And tanks working in coordination with infantry could be quite effective.

Another thought that comes to mind would be armored personnel carriers with mobility combined with rifles and machine guns. Hussite war wagons v mounted knights might be a parallel.


Don

Towed artillery can be set up and firing in minutes, if what you need is direct fire. Accurate indirect fire where the gunners don't really know where they are WRT each other or the enemy probably needs another 15 or so for registration.

Whether the Sharonans have _trained_ for that kind of gunnery is another matter, of course.

n7axw wrote:

tonyz wrote:At the moment, they don't need to mount artillery on Bisons -- machine guns will be perfectly adequate for a good deal of anti-dragon work. Mortars and the heavier guns can be towed along and set up as needed.

I'm thinking more in terms of dealing with infantry than dragons. What we have not seen yet is a set piece battle in the open with neither side forted up. Given Sharona's ability to supply heavy forces by rail, one would think that would give them an advantage. But that does remain to be seen.

I'm not sure that given the fluidity of a battle in the open that there would always be time to set up towed weapons. Rifles and machine guns, of course, are another matter. And tanks working in coordination with infantry could be quite effective.

Another thought that comes to mind would be armored personnel carriers with mobility combined with rifles and machine guns. Hussite war wagons v mounted knights might be a parallel.


Don

Dragons are a huge advantage, but there is a way to fight them, but it costs. Say at portals create fortifications and bunkers, ones that force dragons close in yo harm. They can create a second line to fire on the first. Force the to come to the fields of fire. Dragons might be able to by pass,

The issue with Arcanians dealing with Sharonan Artillery is that they do not fathom the concept of indirect fire.

It is completely outside their intellectual paradigm.

While Hundred Thalmayr isn't the sharpest knife in the ArcanianArmy drawer, his first reaction to chan Tesh's 4.5 inch mortars was that the Sharonan's were using a direct fire weapon that projecting its effect through a solid object (See pg 339 of HELL'S GATE).

While Gadrial thought of spell enhanced projectiles as a way to project artillery spells though a portal. She was not thinking in terms of indirect fire any more than Hundred Thalmayr.

And this Arcanian intellectual blinder also affected Neshok's interrogations of Sharonan prisoners of war regards the performance of Sharonan artillery.

By Ft.Salby, the Arcanians had figured out the range of Sharonan guns/mortars and dead zones, to some extent, to land the Heavy Horse.

They still don't understand the implications of diagonal shooting across the portal or what it means for a meeting engagement.

NB: Given Sharonan distance viewer talents, or trained Sharonan artillery observers with 5 to 10 power field glasses, plus a flicker talent, any future open field battle between Sharonan Artillery and Arcanian will see the former blow to Hades the latter simply because Sharonan artillery will have spell proof cover between it and the Arcanian infantry/field dragons. Yes, the Sharonan's will be artillery ammunition limited. But that means little if they have enough to eliminate the majority of Arcanian Infantry and Field Dragons so that the Sharonan rifles and machine guns can work their death without interference on crossbow armed troops.

Mil-tech bard wrote:The issue with Arcanians dealing with Sharonan Artillery is that they do not fathom the concept of indirect fire.

It is completely outside their intellectual paradigm.

While Hundred Thalmayr isn't the sharpest knife in the ArcanianArmy drawer, his first reaction to chan Tesh's 4.5 inch mortars was that the Sharonan's were using a direct fire weapon that projecting its effect through a solid object (See pg 339 of HELL'S GATE).

While Gadrial thought of spell enhanced projectiles as a way to project artillery spells though a portal. She was not thinking in terms of indirect fire any more than Hundred Thalmayr.

And this Arcanian intellectual blinder also affected Neshok's interrogations of Sharonan prisoners of war regards the performance of Sharonan artillery.

By Ft.Salby, the Arcanians had figured out the range of Sharonan guns/mortars and dead zones, to some extent, to land the Heavy Horse.

They still don't understand the implications of diagonal shooting across the portal or what it means for a meeting engagement.

NB: Given Sharonan distance viewer talents, or trained Sharonan artillery observers with 5 to 10 power field glasses, plus a flicker talent, any future open field battle between Sharonan Artillery and Arcanian will see the former blow to Hades the latter simply because Sharonan artillery will have spell proof cover between it and the Arcanian infantry/field dragons. Yes, the Sharonan's will be artillery ammunition limited. But that means little if they have enough to eliminate the majority of Arcanian Infantry and Field Dragons so that the Sharonan rifles and machine guns can work their death without interference on crossbow armed troops.

Just a caution here... they don't comprehend so far... If they encounter enough of it, they are smart enough people to figure it out.

Don