MA? abreviations?

kzt wrote:I have no idea what you are talking about. I said that the Manticore Alliance had effectively collapsed as of the start of the second war. People said, not it was going strong. So now that we have agreed that it had in fact collapsed, what are you talking about?

Hutch wrote:

kzt wrote:I have no idea what you are talking about. I said that the Manticore Alliance had effectively collapsed as of the start of the second war. People said, not it was going strong. So now that we have agreed that it had in fact collapsed, what are you talking about?

I'm not sure that I would say collapsed. In dilapidated shape, no doubt. But while we know of two withdrawals (Talbot and Erewhon), Grayson, Idaho (not heard of until ART, granted, but still a member IIRC, Alizon and Zanzibar were still members, albeit with their share of gripes with the current Government. And with the Andies coming in as 'co-belligerents', if not full MA members, it could be argued (as indeed I am) that the MA was even stronger than it had been (in sheer number of ships) than it had been at the conclusion of the first Havenite war.

The key is Grayson...it is the only other military power that amounts to much in the saga (except for the Andies, and MWW has indicated that they were not quite up to Manty and Grayson levels yet) and as long as they were part of the Alliance, it was still a formidable force (as Hamish and Yanakov proved).

Now, as for the Alliance post-Eliose's visit to Manticore, I expect that the minor members will have the option of joining with the new GA, or saying, in effect, "Sorry, I'm sitting this one out." For example, Zanzibar may figure losing it's space industry twice in 20 years is quite enough and they'll beg off this time around. Idaho, with a wormhole, may not have quite as much choice in the matter.

Interesting discussion.

saber964 wrote:I don't think the rest of minor all and worlds really have the option of sitting it out on the sidelines. Because if in unlikely event of Manticore getting punched out by the SLN, how long do you think it would take for OFS start itching to take over those worlds for there favorite corrupt transteller. It's going to be a massive case of 'either we all hang together or we all hang separately'.

kzt wrote:I have no idea what you are talking about. I said that the Manticore Alliance had effectively collapsed as of the start of the second war. People said, not it was going strong. So now that we have agreed that it had in fact collapsed, what are you talking about?

Hutch wrote:Now, as for the Alliance post-Eliose's visit to Manticore, I expect that the minor members will have the option of joining with the new GA, or saying, in effect, "Sorry, I'm sitting this one out." For example, Zanzibar may figure losing it's space industry twice in 20 years is quite enough and they'll beg off this time around. Idaho, with a wormhole, may not have quite as much choice in the matter.

Weird Harold wrote:

Hutch wrote:Now, as for the Alliance post-Eliose's visit to Manticore, I expect that the minor members will have the option of joining with the new GA, or saying, in effect, "Sorry, I'm sitting this one out." For example, Zanzibar may figure losing it's space industry twice in 20 years is quite enough and they'll beg off this time around. Idaho, with a wormhole, may not have quite as much choice in the matter.

There is textev to exactly that point -- somewhere. I didn't see it when searching for "alliance" earlier, but I do recall a discussion about letting, even urging, smaller systems to stay neutral against the League.

At All Costs, Chapter 42 wrote:"I was afraid of that when I saw the preliminary yard surveys," Honor sighed. "Oh, well. What can't be cured must be endured, as we say on Grayson. And it's not as if repairs are the only thing that's going to be slowing us up."
"Your Grace?"
"I spent three days at Admiralty House, Mercedes. The situation after Zanzibar is even worse than we'd thought. The Caliph is apparently considering withdrawing from the Alliance."
"What?" Brigham sat upright abruptly, and Honor shrugged.
"It's hard to blame him, really. Look at it. His star system's been hammered flat twice, and he joined the Alliance in the first place for protection. It's kind of hard to argue we've protected his people successfully."
"And it's his own admiral's damned fault!" Brigham said hotly. "If al-Bakr hadn't overruled Padgorny and given the Peeps a roadmap of the system defenses, it never would have happened!"
"I know that's the general view in the Fleet, but I'm not sure it's fair."
Brigham looked at her semi-incredulously, and Honor shrugged.
"I'm not saying al-Bakr made the right decision, or that the decision he did make didn't help the Havenites considerably. But if they'd sent in the same attack force against our original defensive deployment, it would have steamrollered anything in its path anyway. Sure, the missile pods would've hurt them more than they did, but not enough to stop an attack that powerful under Lester Tourville's command. The fact that they knew what we'd originally deployed may have inspired them to send a heavier force in the first place, but once they'd made that level of commitment, our original setup wouldn't have stopped them even if it had taken them completely by surprise."
"Maybe you're right." Brigham's concession was manifestly unwilling. "But even if you are, our losses would have been a lot lighter if we hadn't had to throw good money after bad by reinforcing."
"Mercedes," Honor said just a bit sternly, "we have an alliance. That implies mutual responsibilities and obligations—and I might remind you that High Ridge's idiotic failure to remember that has already cost us Erewhon. If we find our obligations under the treaty too onerous, then we should be happy to see Zanzibar withdraw from it. If we don't, then the Star Kingdom—and the Queen—have a direct, personal responsibility to discharge them. And that means reinforcing a threatened ally to the very best of our ability."
Brigham looked at her rebelliously for just a moment, then sighed.
"Point taken, Your Grace. It's just—" She broke off, shaking her head.
"I understand," Honor said. "But the Fleet's angry enough as it is. You and I have a special responsibility to avoid pumping any more hydrogen into that particular fire."
"Understood, Ma'am."
"Good. Having said that, however," Honor continued, "there are some members of the Government—and a few people at Admiralty House, for that matter—who think we should actually be encouraging Zanzibar, and possibly Alizon, as well, to declare nonbelligerent status."
"They what?" Brigham blinked. "After all the trouble we went to to build the Alliance in the first place?"
"The situation was a bit different then," Honor pointed out. "We were on our own against the Peeps, and we were looking for strategic depth. Zanzibar and Alizon have both been net contributors to the Alliance—or would have been, if the need to rebuild both of them after McQueen's Operation Icarus hadn't cost so much—but what we really wanted them for was forward bases when everyone was still thinking in terms of system-by-system advances."
She shrugged.
"Strategic thinking's changed, as our own ops—and Tourville's attack on Zanzibar—demonstrate. Both sides are thinking in terms of deep strikes now, operating deep into 'enemy territory,' and simple strategic depth, unless you've got one heck of a lot of it, is looking less and less important. Not only that, but with Zanzibar effectively knocked out of the war for at least eight T-months to a T-year, the system's become a defensive obligation which offers no return. And Alizon, which also got hammered by Icarus, really only offers us the capacity to build a few dozen battlecruisers or lighter units at a time.
"So the new school of thought argues that freeing ourselves of the defensive commitments to protect relatively minor star systems would actually allow us to concentrate more strength in Home Fleet and here in Eighth Fleet. At the same time, assuming the Republic's willing to accept their neutrality and leave them alone, it gets them out of the line of fire. And the important allies at this moment are Grayson and the Andermani. We can protect Grayson more strongly if we can recall the forces currently tied down by commitments like Alizon, and the Andermani are effectively secure against direct attack simply because of how far away they are."
Brigham sat without speaking for almost two minutes, obviously considering what Honor had just said, then looked at her admiral.
"And do you agree with the 'new school of thought,' Your Grace?"
"I think it's a rational, fresh approach to the problem. And I think that if the Republic is willing to accept and respect the future neutrality of current members of the Alliance, it would be very much in our interest to pursue the possibility. My biggest reservation is whether or not the Republic will accept anything of the sort, though."
"They've been trying to split the Alliance for decades," Brigham pointed out.
"Yes, they have. But one thing Eloise Pritchart and Thomas Theisman obviously aren't is stupid, which means they're as well aware as we are of how the strategic and operational realities have changed. So, if I were they, I'd be very tempted to reject any easy out for our allies. I'd insist on their surrender, rather than simply allowing them to say they're tired of playing and want to go home."
"Or," Brigham said slowly, "you might agree to allow them to become neutral, when what you really intend to do is sweep them right up as soon as we withdraw our units and leave them on their own."
"That's certainly one possibility. And given the Pritchart Administration's apparent track record in interstellar diplomacy, quite a few people opposed to the idea are making the same point. Personally, I think that if Pritchart officially agreed to accept their neutrality, she'd almost have to stand by her word precisely because of the dispute over what happened to our diplomatic correspondence before the shooting started again. I've said as much, not without evoking quite a bit of incredulity. It's not a point on which the Government at large and I, or even my new brother-in-law and I, seem to be in close agreement." She grimaced. "Fortunately, perhaps, it's a decision I don't have to make."
"But it is going to affect our stance here, isn't it? That's why you brought it up."
"Yes, it is. As things stand now, we're being forced to make even heavier commitments to Alizon and the other secondary systems because of what happened at Zanzibar. Which means, of course, that finding replacements and reinforcements for Eighth Fleet just got even harder. And given what we blundered into in Solon, Admiralty House is insistent that we have to be reinforced before we resume offensive operations. We can't afford another hammering like the one Giscard gave us."

More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington wrote:But by 1901 pd, (the time of On Basilisk Station) it had changed, and changed drastically. The PRH's steady economic collapse had driven its expansionism to heights unseen since pre-space days on Old Terra, and the Star Kingdom of Manticore lay squarely in the Peeps' path. The last century's "golden age" was coming to an end with the approach of an interstellar war which would, before it ended, see virtually the entire human-occupied galaxy choosing up sides, with military operations on a scale no one had ever previously contemplated.

In the Service of the Sword, Worlds of Honor #4, In the Service of the Sword wrote:"First, there's the fact that Refuge, Tiberian's single inhabited planet, doesn't have much of a population. Accordin' t' the latest census data available, the entire settled area is concentrated on a single continent in an area somewhat smaller than Ms. Hearns' father's steadin' on Grayson." He nodded in Abigail's direction, and his eyes seemed to gleam with an edge of sardonic humor as she stiffened in her chair.
"The whole population amounts t' less than a hundred thousand," he continued, "and its deep space presence is strictly limited, t' say the least. Frankly, it's not much more likely that pirates would be spotted someplace like Tiberian than they would in a completely uninhabited system. Especially if they showed a modicum of caution.

SWM wrote:

saber964 wrote:I don't think the rest of minor all and worlds really have the option of sitting it out on the sidelines. Because if in unlikely event of Manticore getting punched out by the SLN, how long do you think it would take for OFS start itching to take over those worlds for there favorite corrupt transteller. It's going to be a massive case of 'either we all hang together or we all hang separately'.

But what do you think those minor systems can actually contribute to the Grand Alliance? Sure, if the GA loses, they will probably be rolled over by the Solarian League--maybe in a century or two. But if they can't actually contribute to the Alliance, then why should they join the Alliance? The only thing that joining the Alliance would do to them is make them certain targets of the League now, instead of maybe being targets in a hundred years.

If they join the Grand Alliance, all they will do is get in the way.

Vince wrote:The textev was not about the smaller systems in the Manticoran Alliance staying neutral against the Solarian League. It was about possibly having some of the smaller Manticoran Alliance members declare non-belligerent status/neutrality with respect to the Republic of Haven, well before the formation of the Grand Alliance:

At All Costs, Chapter 42 wrote:...

saber964 wrote:

SWM wrote:But what do you think those minor systems can actually contribute to the Grand Alliance? Sure, if the GA loses, they will probably be rolled over by the Solarian League--maybe in a century or two. But if they can't actually contribute to the Alliance, then why should they join the Alliance? The only thing that joining the Alliance would do to them is make them certain targets of the League now, instead of maybe being targets in a hundred years.

If they join the Grand Alliance, all they will do is get in the way.

Well if Manticore goes out, its a jumping off point for all those independent worlds in the area. Plus the MWJ puts those world a hop skip and a jump from the core worlds. Think of a sinking ship and sharks in the water.

Weird Harold wrote:It is, however, evidence that the Manticoran Alliance was still in effect, and being honored, after the start of the second war. The earlier citations from A Rising Thunder demonstrate that an unspecified number of allies were willing to hang in -- and after the Yawata Strike, Alizon's battlecruiser capable ship yard would be more important than it was in At All Costs

I suspect that the MAlign won't be terribly interested in small nations in the Haven Quadrant until the League and GA are dealt with -- maybe a few centuries down the road if they're as smart as they think they are.