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SonicShane97 wrote:Hello, I'm new here, so please don't get mad at me about this topic.
So far I have read all current Safehold Books, and David reiterates over and over how Charis and Chisholm are equal partners. But I really don't think that is the case; here's why. By equal, I am also referring to "most important."
1. It's called the "Empire of Charis-" Why can't it be called "The Empire of Charis and Chisholm"? Calling it Charis just makes it sound like a conquered territory of Charis. And I know they always refer to Chisholm as Charis now, and real Charis as "Old Charis" but I think that the name is just suspect.

And when other countries join, is the name going to keep growing, or are they inevitably second class members? The Church of Charis had the same sort of concern raised against it - as I recall, the response ran that whatever other name they may try to hang on it, it'd get called that by their enemies anyway, so they may as well embrace it without shame.

Whatever else, Charis started this. That's worth a name.

2. All innovation and manufacturing takes place in "Old Charis" like all of Howsmyn's works. "Like A Mighty Army" (I think, it could have been another more recent one) covered how Chisholm needed to catch up to Old Charis in terms of manufacturing and even the vast gulfs between working conditions in each respective nation. All Chisholm seems to make is whiskey.

And catching up is happening. Charis has been the leader in manufacturing in the Out Islands - per capita, on Safehold entirely - well before Armageddon Reef and since. Any partner would be catching up, or simply falling further behind. If you're committed to an equal partnership, it means a commitment to catch them up - not to take on only partners who are already peers in every last way, nor to deny genuine inequalities rather than address them.

While Chisholm's army wasn't prepared for the Corisande campaign, it's far and away the dominant partner in terms of numbers and senior officers in the ICA since then, and while Charis had a leg up with the new weapons, Chisholm's been the instructor for logistics on land and for organizing major campaigns. The armies of either nation would have made mistakes in the Corisande campaign - either in how to use the new weapons, had Chisholm done it, or in sheer scale of maneuver, as Charis did. (Mistakes from which they could recover - not accidentally, through use of sea power, given that Charisian background.) Combined - and with, one can assume, some help from Emerald at least as well - they've done better still in Siddarmark.

3. The Navy- it's all Charis. However, that is set to change apparently in the next few years, according to "Like A Mighty Army."

As soon as it can. Earl Sharpfield is the ICN flag officer in the Gulf of Dohlar now. White Ford, of Tarot, is the port admiral of the ICN in Siddar City. And outside the military, the First Councilor of the Empire is an Emeraldian.

The Empire isn't integrated in a day. It comes together as fast as it can, consistent with getting the job done. It's not going to do the parts any good if the try to fling the Army, Navy, government, or manufacturing sectors together by quota faster than they can fill the positions with people up to speed in the jobs.

4. I know people are going to bring up Charis's lack of an army in this thread, but here me out. During the Corisandian campaign, it was stated that the Chisholmians were left out of the action because they didn't know how to wage wars with the new weapons the Charisians introduced, and felt bitter as a result. To me, there is an implication the Chisholm would have just gotten in the way. Yes, the Chisholmians had better tactics, but their whole army's weaponry and breakdown was changed to conform with the Charisians imput. It didn't become Chisholm's army, it became Charis's.

I've never flet that way learning something from someone else, myself. I've never become an extension or echo of my teachers - even less so when I've picked up certain skills and added them to ones I had before to become better at the task than I was before.

The officers and soldiers of the old Royal Army aren't estranged from Chisholm and made to do the bidding of an alien overlord. They're taking their orders from their Queen still, and occasionally her consort. The elected bodies of their governments are immediately the same as ever, plus another Imperial body in which they are amply represented.

What more, short of dominating Charis, could they expect? And why should they expect that?

The way I see it, Charis just needed a lot more bodies to create an army for itself, and Chisholm was the perfect avenue for them to pursue.

Alternatively: Chisholm just needed a lot more ships - galleons especially - to re-create a navy for itself, and Charis was the perfect avenue for them to pursue. Queen Sharleyan was quite the cunning ruler there! And all Charis' military advances, all their manufacturing techniques, much of their investment, has all fallen into Chisholmian hands as a result of her ploy.

It's an amalgamation. Everyone gets something. And if it's not among identical twins, people bring different things to the table.

Please keep in mind, I have only read every book in the series so far once, and could be a little rusty on some of the info or may have missed points out which I hope some of you will share with me.
All the best!

I don't know that there are key revelations that are missing, but there's still ample reason to adjust perspective there.

Charis is and has been a unique state on Safehold. It's why Merlin picked it, it's why it was the Group of Four's would-be victim. It will bring signal, exceptional things to the table. That does not condemn anyone else in the Empire to being mere followers and coat-carriers. It may mean that they aren't taking center-stage. It may mean that they are following manufacturing and doctrinal paths blazed first by Charis. Equality here shouldn't be measured in capabilities already achieved so much as in potential and in the commitment to make it actual.

Hi SonicShane97,

Welcome to the forums. We hope you enjoy yourself here. You are invited to belly up to the virtual bar for the virtual drink of your choice. It's on the house!

Probably the strongest argument in favor of regarding Old Charis the senior partner is the difference in their economies. The throne is committed to changing that, but how it will work out remains to be seen.

I think if I had been naming the new empire, I would have called it the Empire of the Seas.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi SonicShane97,

Welcome to the forums. We hope you enjoy yourself here. You are invited to belly up to the virtual bar for the virtual drink of your choice. It's on the house!

Probably the strongest argument in favor of regarding Old Charis the senior partner is the difference in their economies. The throne is committed to changing that, but how it will work out remains to be seen.

I think if I had been naming the new empire, I would have called it the Empire of the Seas.

Don

Empire of the "C"s? Charis, Chisholm and Corrisande?

Ok, so they have to change Tarot's name. Carot? Carrot?

Keith_w wrote:

n7axw wrote:I think if I had been naming the new empire, I would have called it the Empire of the Seas.

Don

Empire of the "C"s? Charis, Chisholm and Corrisande?

Ok, so they have to change Tarot's name. Carot? Carrot?

Ctarot! As Safehold games go, it's not outlandish.

One can argue that, from at least one perspective, that Chisholm is the senior partner in the Empire.

As formidable as Cayleb is, he's learned that "Yes, dear." is the only viable response in certain situations.

First off welcome! It is always good to see a new fan to this beloved series.


I think in general you do raise a good point in that Chisholm is still playing catch up to Charis in a few ways, ESPECIALLY on the economic side of the house. Charis is the real breadwinner in this arrangement, no argument about that, in fact that is one of Cayleb and Sharleyn's big concerns/courses of action. There are multiple scenes in the last book or two about what is being done to try to change that, including doing some pretty major investments in things from lock improvement to railroad construction. Getting them up to economic parity needs to be, and is a priority, its just not something that can happen overnight. Although the powers to be are aware of the issue, and are working on it. If anyone thinks that Cayleb and Sharleyne won't be able to overcome their internal opposition (mostly from Chisholmian Nobles) then they clearly are reading a different series.


Your first point about the naming scheme is just one of those things. They had to call it something, and Charis did definitely start off as the senior partner. Don't forget they did just win a war, a war neither of them fought but the vast bulk of the Chisholmian navy, something like what 50 or so Galleys, was captured. You win the war you get to pick the name.

That being said this also leads into point 3/4, there are in fact a lot of Chisholmian personnel in the navy, going by very rough pre-war numbers something like a quarter to a third of the Imperial Charisian Navy is from Chisholm. The number two Admiral in the navy is Earl Sharpfield, and while he has not been given the screen time the man deserves, that is changing as he is getting ready to put his boot up Thrisk's ass. Admiral Shain comments that there are still relatively few non-Charisians or Chisholmians in command of major warships as he is observing an Emereldian Captain and a Tarotian Captain. The inverse is true for the Army, with what 3 of the 5 armies operating in Siddimark being under the command of Chisholmians. Yes Charis had input in how the army's tactics would be developed around the brand new weapons, but to be fair Green Valley was cheating at that point and had access to the historical records from Earth. That being said the Charisian Marines had more then a lot to learn about being an army as well, with Green Valley being an out-liar. Cause he is cheating.

Now were they are really dropping the ball is back with your second point in the whole innovation thing. There is no Textev info that the Royal Charisian College (as in Old Charis) has made, or is making, the transition to a proper Imperial Charisian College located in all the major units of the Empire. There needs to be a branch in Teyerath as well as the other capitals. I have high hopes that Irys will be the one to get this ball rolling, but I am kind of surprised they have kept all their eggs in one basket for so long on an intellectual basis. Clearly they are trying to spread the manufacturing around throughout the Empire, but the center of learning and knowledge is clearly still in Old Charis by a wide margin.

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Direwolf18 wrote:Now were they are really dropping the ball is back with your second point in the whole innovation thing. There is no Textev info that the Royal Charisian College (as in Old Charis) has made, or is making, the transition to a proper Imperial Charisian College located in all the major units of the Empire. There needs to be a branch in Teyerath as well as the other capitals. I have high hopes that Irys will be the one to get this ball rolling, but I am kind of surprised they have kept all their eggs in one basket for so long on an intellectual basis. Clearly they are trying to spread the manufacturing around throughout the Empire, but the center of learning and knowledge is clearly still in Old Charis by a wide margin.

All the other Out Islands knew for years that Charis' Royal College gave them an edge, and that it put them on the Temple's suspect list. Hektor would've loved to have one, but for his need to play the role of the Church's one true orthodox champion out there. I'm sure similar thoughts went through Nahrmahn's and Gorjah's heads. (And Sharleyan's and her father's as well, but they had enough troubles keeping their own nobles in line to gamble with that, whatever Zion thought.)

That attitude is going to take some time to coax out of hiding. That coaxing is certainly going on in Chisholm, Emerald, and Tarot by now. Corisande's had to suffer a bit from the associations among innovation, Charis, and defeat more than the others, but it does have going for it two things: the object, painful lesson of what being behind the times gets you, and Irys' enthusiasm for learning.

I look forward to Royal Colleges elsewhere in the Empire, but that's just the visible face of a whole complex of social changes embracing innovation. Craftsmen and factory owners trying new things and taking advantage of better communications, patents, and standards of weights and measures aren't nearly so dramatic, but they make that progress on a broader, grassroots level. That end of the campaign is coming along nicely, if quietly.

That attitude is going to take some time to coax out of hiding. That coaxing is certainly going on in Chisholm, Emerald, and Tarot by now. Corisande's had to suffer a bit from the associations among innovation, Charis, and defeat more than the others, but it does have going for it two things: the object, painful lesson of what being behind the times gets you, and Irys' enthusiasm for learning.

Don't forget Daivyn himself. Most of his screen time might be about him learning to be a little boy again, but he did get put into those math classes aboard Destiny on the way to Chisholm, which he apparently enjoyed