MA? abreviations?

hanuman wrote:

kzt wrote:It [the Manticoran Alliance - ed] the largely disintegrated under the High Ridge government.

Erewhon was the only member of the Manty Alliance that withdrew from it. I'll admit that High Ridge's policies put the alliance under severe stress, but saying that it disintegrated takes it just a bit too far, wouldn't you say?

The Talbot system (not to be confused with the Talbott Cluster where the Shadows books were set) also withdrew. But they were a smaller player than Erewhon (at least in terms of screen time) and didn't get the tech upgrades - though they did have a yard capable of building old-style SDs.

There may have been a few other minor systems that pulled out during the ceasefire shenanigans. (And I bet Zanzibar wishes they'd done so )

Jonathan_S wrote:The Talbot system (not to be confused with the Talbott Cluster where the Shadows books were set) also withdrew. But they were a smaller player than Erewhon (at least in terms of screen time) and didn't get the tech upgrades - though they did have a yard capable of building old-style SDs.

There were 3 members of the the Manticore Alliance that could build SDs. Talbot was one of them and was very actively building major combatants. It was much more capable than Erewhon. Losing Talbot was pretty much the deathblow to the Alliance. By the end you had basket cases and Manticore. Grayson hadn't withdrawn, but in practical terms there was no Alliance. No force planning, no joint R&D, no exercises, no high level military liaison teams in each other's HQs.

It was ready to get a fork stuck in it.

Textev for the disintegration of the Manticoran Alliance?

It was a Military alliance system.
It had financial and economic incentives (Growing Economies, something that is supposedly the prime mission of the Solarian League?) and diplomatic components.
I thought the allied ambassadors were brought in to consult about and initial the treaty with Haven. Am I wrong?

Yes the MA was strained by the High Ridge Misgovernment. I don't believe it fell apart under it, though.

I also believe is some of those who left during the Brats in Power (my name for the High Ridge thing) returned when Grantville took over? Am I wrong about that?

My point is until a text ev explicitly states, I keep thinking the Manty Alliance is an ongoing (if rickety) concern.....

kenl511 wrote:Textev for the disintegration of the Manticoran Alliance?

There is no textev. However, there is also no mention of the Manticoran Alliance since the end of the war with Haven.

The Manticoran Alliance was specifically a military alliance against Haven. Now that Haven is no longer a threat, the purpose of the Alliance is gone.

It was a Military alliance system.
It had financial and economic incentives (Growing Economies, something that is supposedly the prime mission of the Solarian League?) and diplomatic components.
I thought the allied ambassadors were brought in to consult about and initial the treaty with Haven. Am I wrong?

You are wrong. The only representatives from the Manticoran Alliance present at those discussions were Manticore, Grayson, and the Anderman Empire. There was no mention made of any other Manticoran Alliance members.

Yes the MA was strained by the High Ridge Misgovernment. I don't believe it fell apart under it, though.

I also believe is some of those who left during the Brats in Power (my name for the High Ridge thing) returned when Grantville took over? Am I wrong about that?

You are wrong about that. The only nations specifically named as leaving the Manticoran Alliance are Erewhon and Talbot. We know for certain that neither one rejoined the Manticoran Alliance later. It is suspected by many here that other nations left the Alliance, but there is no textev to support or refute that idea.

My point is until a text ev explicitly states, I keep thinking the Manty Alliance is an ongoing (if rickety) concern.....

You may be right. But as I said, there has been no mention of the Manticoran Alliance since the First Battle of Manticore. Specifically, there is no mention of the Manticoran Alliance or its membership with respect to the Grand Alliance. As far as we know, the only members of the Manticoran Alliance who became members of the Grand Alliance are Manticore and Grayson. Not even the Anderman Empire is part of the Grand Alliance.

There has been speculation here in the past (I was one of several who proposed it at various times) that it would have been appropriate if the members of the Manticoran Alliance were actually discouraged from joining the Grand Alliance. The smaller members of the Manticoran Alliance were useful, even important, during the Havenite wars because of their physical locations. They were directly in the line of fire--if they had not joined in alliance with Manticore, they would have been absorbed by Haven before the war even began. By joining the Alliance, they denied Haven a number of systems and potential forward bases. During the war they served as forward supply bases for the Alliance, and a buffer between Haven and the Manticoran home system. Remember, for much of the war, the standard strategy was using systems as stepping stones, a steady push advance of the front lines, capturing system after system. The alliance was beneficial for both Manticore and the alliance members. Only Grayson, Talbot and Erewhon were able to supply ships and crews to the war effort in the first Havenite war, and two of them left the Alliance years ago.

Now that Manticore is fighting the Solarian League, the Manticoran Alliance members cannot provide any significant benefit. They are on the wrong side of Manticore to provide forward supply bases. In any case, Manticore no longer uses the advancing front form of warfare, and Manticore controls wormholes to provide deep penetration. Other than the Anderman Empire and Grayson, the remaining Manticoran Alliance members could not contribute significant ships, supplies, bases, or intelligence. Indeed, the smaller members are a serious liability. If they were allied with Manticore, they would potential military targets of the Solarian League. They would contribute nothing to the war effort, while forcing Manticore to defend them against the League.

It would be smart for the Manticoran Alliance to voluntarily disband. I suppose if a member really wanted to join the Grand Alliance, I would let them, but I don't see that it would be beneficial to that member. It would just make them a big target. Disbanding would free Manticore to primarily consider the defense of its own systems and pressing the war forward, without distractions. I believe this is what happened.

But we have no textev either way.

I should add:

If the Manticoran Alliance did disband, it would be plausible for the smaller members of the former alliance to form a new treaty organization, perhaps a trade group of some kind. They could also include some of the systems who voted for independence from Haven. These systems now find themselves between the still very large Republic of Haven and the growing Manticoran Empire. They might feel more comfortable having allies for trade negotiations with those two economic powerhouses.

SWM wrote:I should add:

If the Manticoran Alliance did disband, it would be plausible for the smaller members of the former alliance to form a new treaty organization, perhaps a trade group of some kind. They could also include some of the systems who voted for independence from Haven. These systems now find themselves between the still very large Republic of Haven and the growing Manticoran Empire. They might feel more comfortable having allies for trade negotiations with those two economic powerhouses.

It was mentioned in one of the latter books that Idaho (a system 20 light years SW of Manticore has a hyper bridge to Solarian held space (Zunker?) and was a part of the Manticorian Alliance. I wouls assume that Menticore would not abandon it now, especially with 1) Laocoon II and 2)the danger it poses in Manticore's backyard as a back route to the Solarian League.

Theemile wrote:

SWM wrote:I should add:

If the Manticoran Alliance did disband, it would be plausible for the smaller members of the former alliance to form a new treaty organization, perhaps a trade group of some kind. They could also include some of the systems who voted for independence from Haven. These systems now find themselves between the still very large Republic of Haven and the growing Manticoran Empire. They might feel more comfortable having allies for trade negotiations with those two economic powerhouses.

It was mentioned in one of the latter books that Idaho (a system 20 light years SW of Manticore has a hyper bridge to Solarian held space (Zunker?) and was a part of the Manticorian Alliance. I wouls assume that Menticore would not abandon it now, especially with 1) Laocoon II and 2)the danger it poses in Manticore's backyard as a back route to the Solarian League.

Yeah. Idaho or any other members with hyper bridges still offer something worth keeping them in the Grand Alliance; plus they're at risk from the SLN whether or not they're officially part of the Alliance. So might as well have them be official members.

In the time i´ve been on the forum, i´m not sure if i´ve seen ANYONE use "MA" for Manticore Alliance.

Manticore or Manties is used as a catchall AFAIK.

While I am in agreement with you for most of your points, SWM, I would note that textev backs up kenl1511 on the below point.

kenl511 wrote: It was a Military alliance system.
It had financial and economic incentives (Growing Economies, something that is supposedly the prime mission of the Solarian League?) and diplomatic components.
I thought the allied ambassadors were brought in to consult about and initial the treaty with Haven. Am I wrong?

SWM wrote:You are wrong. The only representatives from the Manticoran Alliance present at those discussions were Manticore, Grayson, and the Anderman Empire. There was no mention made of any other Manticoran Alliance members.

From A Rising Thunder (italics mine):

Still, if someone had told her she and Pritchart could accomplish this much, agree to this much, in only seven days, she would have suggested they be confined in a nice, safe cell. Yes, there were still huge gray areas, but what they’d gotten down in written form proved that knowing one was about to be hanged (or invaded by the Solarian League) truly did concentrate one’s mind wonderfully. This treaty, rough as it was, created an alliance between the Star Empire of Manticore and the Republic of Haven which committed each of them to the defense of the other. There hadn’t been time—with one exception—to consult with the Star Empire’s allies, but Elizabeth had been careful to bring every one of those allies’ ambassadors on board, and most of them had initialed the draft on their governments’ behalfs. The Andermani ambassador hadn’t, yet that was hardly surprising, given the traditional Andermani realpolitik. By the same token (and for the same reasons), he hadn’t voiced any official opposition to it, either, though, and the Andermani Empire was an “associated power” rather than a full member of the Manticoran Alliance, anyway.

SWM wrote:

kenl511 wrote:I thought the allied ambassadors were brought in to consult about and initial the treaty with Haven. Am I wrong?

You are wrong. The only representatives from the Manticoran Alliance present at those discussions were Manticore, Grayson, and the Anderman Empire. There was no mention made of any other Manticoran Alliance members.

A Rising Thunder
Chapter Eleven wrote:Still, if someone had told her she and Pritchart could accomplish this much, agree to this much, in only seven days, she would have suggested they be confined in a nice, safe cell. Yes, there were still huge gray areas, but what they’d gotten down in written form proved that knowing one was about to be hanged (or invaded by the Solarian League) truly did concentrate one’s mind wonderfully. This treaty, rough as it was, created an alliance between the Star Empire of Manticore and the Republic of Haven which committed each of them to the defense of the other. There hadn’t been time—with one exception—to consult with the Star Empire’s allies, but Eloise had been careful to bring every one of those allies’ ambassadors on board, and most of them had initialed the draft on their governments’ behalfs. The Andermani ambassador hadn’t, yet that was hardly surprising, given the traditional Andermani realpolitik. By the same token (and for the same reasons), he hadn’t voiced any official opposition to it, either, though, and the Andermani Empire was an “associated power” rather than a full member of the Manticoran Alliance, anyway.

The one ally there had been time to actually consult was the Protectorate of Grayson, three and a half T-days from the Manticore Binary System by dispatch boat. Elizabeth had sent Benjamin Mayhew word of Pritchart’s totally unexpected visit the day the president arrived, and Benjamin Mayhew, with a decisiveness and speed unusual even for him, had needed only hours to decide where he stood. He’d sent back his enthusiastic support … and his only brother as his personal envoy.

Michael Mayhew had arrived yesterday, just in time to put his own signature on the draft as Grayson’s plenipotentiary. Which, given most Manticorans’ attitude towards their most constant ally, could only be a major plus. Not to mention demonstrating to all the Star Empire’s allies as conclusively as humanly possible that William Alexander and his government were not Michael Janvier and his government.

It is apparent that the Manticoran Alliance still exists as the Star Empire didn't really have any other allies. The amassadors were consulted -- whether that consitutes "brought in" or not is a pointless distinction.