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Re: Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage To Be Law Of The L | |
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by Daryl » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:42 pm | |
Daryl
Posts: 3562
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Hanuman, there is one fundamental difference relating to many same sex marriages. Any child they have must have been really wanted and planned for due to the difficulties they face in having them. Not just a resented product of a drunken one night stand as many in the wider community are.
This difference is a positive for same sex marriage rights. I'm still puzzled by PeterZ's stance. It can't be due to Christian beliefs as they should not wish to cause grief to vulnerable people, and they talk muchly about how love is the most important thing of all so shouldn't support legal loveless unions. Possibly it is due to a mind set that "Rules are Rules, and mustn't be challenged", that many uber conservatives have. If the baker doesn't want to write that message on the cake he should cease writing any messages on any cakes, so as to not discriminate and cause cruel distress to people. |
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Re: Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage To Be Law Of The L | |
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by hanuman » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:53 am | |
hanuman
Posts: 643
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I have friends in Texas who had to spend well over a hundred grand in order to adopt their two kids, and the boys are literally the happiest children I have ever encountered. Mind you, quite possibly also the most rambunctious, but my granny always said a naughty child is a healthy child... Obviously, I do not know Peter personally, but whatever the difficulty he is having with the Obergefell ruling might be, it is clearly not based on reason, or for that matter, compassion. My assertion throughout this discussion has been that the SCOTUS did nothing more than rule that existing constitutional provisions apply to same sex couples as well. I often get the impression that the opponents of same sex marriage feel that allowing same sex couples to wed will somehow devalue their own marriages or violate their own rights in some way. However, one thing that they seem to ignore is that straight people have been devaluing marriage as an institution for a long time now. The opposing camp is always quick to emphasize the importance of marriage, yet there seems to be a disconnect between that abstract realization and practice. A lot of queer folks know very well how important marriage is, and that is why we had been so anxious to gain access to the institution for ourselves. It seems that after so much effort, we and our straight allies are far more likely to really value the fruit of our labours than not. |
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Re: Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage To Be Law Of The L | |
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by Annachie » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:03 am | |
Annachie
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More competition for the limited number of venues, or wedding planners, may mean a straight couple has to change their wedding plans. I can literally think of nothing else. Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ still not dead. |
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Re: Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage To Be Law Of The L | |
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by PeterZ » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:49 pm | |
PeterZ
Posts: 6432
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What puzzles you, Daryl? I have stated that marriage had been defined as a contract between one man and one woman. Change the participants and you change the contract into something else, because the definition has changed with the change in participants. I have never argued against same sex unions offering the same or if desired different rights and responsibilities. As a matter of fact I agree that commitment to another human being is an intrinsic good separate from any other activities that Christians find sinful.
Too many of these posts revert back to assuming I have stated something else. I have not.
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Re: Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage To Be Law Of The L | |
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by Eyal » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:18 pm | |
Eyal
Posts: 334
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I hate to harp on the same point over and over again, but you have declined to answer thus far.
In many of the states, marriage used to be defined as a contract between two persons of the same race. Did the SCOTUS decision in Loving vs Virginia constitute a redefinition of marriage as defined in those states' law? Do you hold that the SCOTUS should have refrained from ruling as it did, instead waiting for the legislatures to address the issue? Note that the last state to repeal its anti-miscgenation laws (Alabama) did so only in 2000 (and it wasn't a unanimous decision even then).
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Re: Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage To Be Law Of The L | |
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by PeterZ » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:07 pm | |
PeterZ
Posts: 6432
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SCOTUS' decision in Loving was unanimous and could be achieved by simply stating any reference to race with regards to whom could marry who was unconstitutional and should be ignored. What remained of those laws would still work to achieve the one and and one woman definition. Nothing new need be added. As I posted in an earlier post citing the South Carolina law on marriage, simply deleting and prohibition to same sex unions won't work for that law.
The bolded wording is rendered unconstitutional. The rest needs to be changed or SCOTUS' ruling would allow for closely related people of the same sex to marry while those same relations could not marry if they were of the opposite sex. We discussed this already. So I have no issue with SOTUS declaring the prohibition on interracial marriage as unconstitutional. Nothing further was needed. The current ruling does mean that state laws need to be rewritten. Had SCOTUS ruled that any state law on marriage required being rewritten in some specified period of time or have the same sex prohibitions voided at the end of that period, I would have had no problems at all. Some states would have created other unions defined as men and men or women and women. Others would have redefined marriage altogether to include same sex unions. Each solution would be appropriate for the way that State addresses marriage and same sex couples would have the civil protections they desire. There would also be no snafus like the gaps in the South Carolina marriage law. Now, I ask you. Do you believe the Colorado baker has 1st Amendment protection in declining to accept making a cake that expresses an idea that is inconsistent with his religious beliefs? He will engage in any other sort of commerce with respect to his baking business with the same sex couple. He will only decline engaging in an activity that supports what he does not believe in. |
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Re: Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage To Be Law Of The L | |
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by Spacekiwi » Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:11 am | |
Spacekiwi
Posts: 2634
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Regardless of unanimity or not, as of now, SSM is legal. For an issue of wording, the wording of the laws was always going to need to be changed to enable same sex marriage, the ruling just forces it to happen faster.
Regarding the states rewriting laws, given cases such as the DOMA, I suspect that the laws would have been such that several states would have ended up with a civil union type situation with reduced opportunities as compared to normal marriages, which was part of the reason for suing in the first place. doing so only kicks the bucket down the road for another few years, while doing this now forces it to a conclusion for everyone immediately, without creating a secondary class of marriage for gays. From Obergefell vs Hodges: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/14-556
Also:
To quote from Loving v Virginia:
Note the first bit could be changed from a white person and coloured person to a man and a man/ a woman and a woman? Different law, same result: a couple is denied a marriage due to a law. Your law as stated would also break Justice Stewarts concurring remark if the word race was changed to gender. Also from Loving v Virginia:
again, change race to gender and you have a ruling that equally fits same sex marriages, without needing to change any other wording. Entire sections of Loving need only the wording to be changed from racial to gender to be equally applicable. Link for Lovin v Virginia: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/388/1 From Obergefell vs Hodges:
So even the defending party in Obergefell was admitting that the current situation was such that while gay unions were better than nothing, they didnt compare to marriage for the benefits offered. This is further supported further down:
For the idea that it might have problems with the first:
SO, the Affirming decision was based on the idea that the definition of marriage as it currently stands once more needed further definition to match the ideals of the 14th. What about the dissent?
So the dissent as worded here and elsewhere is that the redefinition of marriage is the reason for the dissent, as it had not been redefined to allow gay unions before, so it should not be changed now.
Again, the dissent here is not opposed to the majority, but questioning whether the majority was made on the right grounds, and whether it should not ave invalidated the side laws surrounding marriage as opposed to the marriage itself.
Again, not against gay marriage, but against the perceived problems it may have with the court ruling, and as to whether it was constitutional to do so. Had the wording of the opinion been different, the end result may well have been 6-3 or more, but the dissent was as to whether the court could do what it did, not whether the court needed to do what it did.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ its not paranoia if its justified... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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Re: Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage To Be Law Of The L | |
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by PeterZ » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:23 am | |
PeterZ
Posts: 6432
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Spacekiwi,
Your point? You agreed that the State laws had to be rewritten. You agreed that even the dissent did not wish to deprive same sex couples of the opportunity for creating unions. The disagreement was in how to go about it. If the issue is equal protection, then use the 14th to define what rights and responsibilities must be conveyed in any union regardless of its name and let the States rewrite the laws to meet that requirement. Even if they decided as they did force the States to rewrite their laws before the ruling creates the loopholes that currently exist. Since the laws need to be changed anyway, ruling to expedite that change in consistent ways strikes me as the optimal solution. Otherwise, having scant majority SCOTUS decisions crammed down the collective throats of many Americans does not make for easy acceptance. Especially when accompanied by cases like the baker in Colorado that infringe in 1st Amendment protections. |
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Re: Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage To Be Law Of The L | |
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by Spacekiwi » Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:03 pm | |
Spacekiwi
Posts: 2634
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The issue for the dissenters was whether the 14th applied to marriage if you read the ruling. the dissent argued that the 14th prevented negative discrimination, but did not force positive discrimination, and so that it was not needed for the SCOTUS to rule on it as it should be a legislative matter. However, the majority agreed that due to past attempts to legislate in similar methods in the past caused problems, and eventually required the courts to step in again, so SCOTUS bypassed this loop and directly ruled on it the first time round.
And again, it was found that there was no breach of the bakers first. He has not been forced to change his speech or his opinion, merely his actions to ensure compliance with the law, just like the mormons were forced to adhere to monogamy as opposed to bigamy, all the way back to Reynolds V US(1878).
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ its not paranoia if its justified... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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Re: Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage To Be Law Of The L | |
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by Annachie » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:16 am | |
Annachie
Posts: 3099
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I suppose it's fair to say that the baker could descriminate as much as he liked. The bakery however can't.
Two seperate entities, that every arguement or discussion seems to roll into one entity. Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ still not dead. |
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