Haven sector United against League

The Harrington Doctrine supposes that the League will shatter into a lot of pieces of varying sizes: everything from single planet Systems (and the alternative no habitable planet systems like Technodyne's corporate system) small multi-system alliances and large multi-system alliances. Just how that is going to shake out isn't really known. Manticore can anticipate that some of the Core Worlds are going to have - if not direct alliances with daughter colonies and major (long term) tradeing partners- fairly large alliances baised on historic engagement.

Nobody has yet - amoung the Manticore Alliance and friends in the books - that there are already a planned alliance of systems already alligned and essentialy controlled by the Alignment. The whole RF deal, which we can see but nobody outside the RF leadership in the Honorers yet knows about is ready to start the program rollilng to create a major successor state and feed the Alignment Plan into the rest of humanity. Im waiting for this possible idea to occur between Haven, Manticore and Beowulf and then they will have to start looking.

We have discussed many possible scenarios, getting well beyond what the Maya System is planning, between potential new multi-system empires by conquest and just hardscrabble alliances to keep trade flowing.

Haven, Manticore, The Aldermani and Beowulf (amoung others) are going to need hundreds of new Ambasidors and Consular Officers to deal with the explosion of new relationships.

Even if Manticore and friends suspect an RF and start looking for it how will they separate the RF states from the rest of the newly formed nations?

Unless someone on the RF side screws up catastrophically there will be no way to pick them out from the crowd.

Roguevictory wrote:Even if Manticore and friends suspect an RF and start looking for it how will they separate the RF states from the rest of the newly formed nations?

Unless someone on the RF side screws up catastrophically there will be no way to pick them out from the crowd.

What I suspect will happen, is that someone in the know on the Allignment's side will run afoul of their superiors and will manage to escape and then seek asylum with the Alliance.

hanuman wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:Even if Manticore and friends suspect an RF and start looking for it how will they separate the RF states from the rest of the newly formed nations?

Unless someone on the RF side screws up catastrophically there will be no way to pick them out from the crowd.

What I suspect will happen, is that someone in the know on the Allignment's side will run afoul of their superiors and will manage to escape and then seek asylum with the Alliance.

That's possible. The problem is even when they know there is an RF and even if they somehow get a list of RF nation states they have to be able to prove to any neutral nations that the RF exists and that their target nations are part of it. Proving this beyond a shadow if a doubt will be extremely difficult and if they can't prove it decisively to non-GA members then it will look like a smokescreen for a poorly disguised power grab especially since many of the RF states will be among the successor states that are the strongest on the military front.

Roguevictory wrote:That's possible. The problem is even when they know there is an RF and even if they somehow get a list of RF nation states they have to be able to prove to any neutral nations that the RF exists and that their target nations are part of it.

Two problems with the RF as far as justifying action against them:

1) Ethics; how do you deal with Good done with Evil Intent? The Renaissance Factor will be a huge factor in suppressing chaos and warlordism. Whatever the intent of the leadersship in the long term, the RF is going to be a "Force for Good" in real-time practical terms.

2) Only the original Eleven (twelve with Darius) states are part of the conspiracy to rule the Galaxy. By the time the RF comes to the attention of the GA, it will have added at least eleven more nations that have no connection to Mesa or the MAlign at any level. There will probably be more than eleven new members by the time they actually secede from the SL and create a formal Multi-Star Nation. How do you deal with the MAlign leadership cadre without punishing the innocent members/population who are basically just doing what the GA is encouraging others to do? (trade and mutual defense agreements.)

Weird Harold wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:That's possible. The problem is even when they know there is an RF and even if they somehow get a list of RF nation states they have to be able to prove to any neutral nations that the RF exists and that their target nations are part of it.

Two problems with the RF as far as justifying action against them:

1) Ethics; how do you deal with Good done with Evil Intent? The Renaissance Factor will be a huge factor in suppressing chaos and warlordism. Whatever the intent of the leadersship in the long term, the RF is going to be a "Force for Good" in real-time practical terms.

2) Only the original Eleven (twelve with Darius) states are part of the conspiracy to rule the Galaxy. By the time the RF comes to the attention of the GA, it will have added at least eleven more nations that have no connection to Mesa or the MAlign at any level. There will probably be more than eleven new members by the time they actually secede from the SL and create a formal Multi-Star Nation. How do you deal with the MAlign leadership cadre without punishing the innocent members/population who are basically just doing what the GA is encouraging others to do? (trade and mutual defense agreements.)

Of course the flipside of this is that (except for Darius) it's not the entire RF planets that are knowingly working towards the MAlign's master plan. It's a relatively few families (Star line plants) who have captured the political power.

So you don't necessarily have to go in and crush the planet if you can through diplomacy, or dirty tricks, get the MAlign puppets out of power. Then that RF world and its allies would presumably switch from doing Good with Evil Intent to just doing Good without even realizing it was ever doing Good for Evil.

Jonathan_S wrote:Of course the flipside of this is that (except for Darius) it's not the entire RF planets that are knowingly working towards the MAlign's master plan. It's a relatively few families (Star line plants) who have captured the political power.

So you don't necessarily have to go in and crush the planet if you can through diplomacy, or dirty tricks, get the MAlign puppets out of power. Then that RF world and its allies would presumably switch from doing Good with Evil Intent to just doing Good without even realizing it was ever doing Good for Evil.

Yeah but the Star lines are major players in the power structure of their systems and probably set up to be widely liked by the population which makes removing them diplomatically hard and removing them via dirty tricks very risky because if the dirty tricks team gets comprimised the GA is caught committing an act of war and building trust with other nations becomes harder for the GA.

Weird Harold wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:That's possible. The problem is even when they know there is an RF and even if they somehow get a list of RF nation states they have to be able to prove to any neutral nations that the RF exists and that their target nations are part of it.

Two problems with the RF as far as justifying action against them:

1) Ethics; how do you deal with Good done with Evil Intent? The Renaissance Factor will be a huge factor in suppressing chaos and warlordism. Whatever the intent of the leadersship in the long term, the RF is going to be a "Force for Good" in real-time practical terms.

2) Only the original Eleven (twelve with Darius) states are part of the conspiracy to rule the Galaxy. By the time the RF comes to the attention of the GA, it will have added at least eleven more nations that have no connection to Mesa or the MAlign at any level. There will probably be more than eleven new members by the time they actually secede from the SL and create a formal Multi-Star Nation. How do you deal with the MAlign leadership cadre without punishing the innocent members/population who are basically just doing what the GA is encouraging others to do? (trade and mutual defense agreements.)

I should have been more clear. What I meant was that my hypothetical defector will inform the Alliance about the existence and location of Darius, at which point the Alliance will swoop down and eliminate the MA leadership on-planet. At that point, I hypothesize that the Factor's partners will pull their heads in and might even decide to limit their plans for galaxy-wide domination to a more local and acceptable (to the Alliance and other newly-emerged powers) scale...

Of course, himself being himself, I suspect to wait another ten years only to find out I was completely wrong

hanuman wrote:I should have been more clear. What I meant was that my hypothetical defector will inform the Alliance about the existence and location of Darius, at which point the Alliance will swoop down and eliminate the MA leadership on-planet.

I suspect that list of everyone who knows where Darius really is is very short and are both on the Darius side and totally unable to talk about this even if you did gain access to them. For example, I suspect that the ships that routinely shuttle people and goods through the wormhole have no survey gear or software that would allow a survey, and anyone showing an unusual interest about where Darius is located either has a fatal accident or gets permanently moved groundside on Darius.

hanuman wrote:
I should have been more clear. What I meant was that my hypothetical defector will inform the Alliance about the existence and location of Darius, at which point the Alliance will swoop down and eliminate the MA leadership on-planet. At that point, I hypothesize that the Factor's partners will pull their heads in and might even decide to limit their plans for galaxy-wide domination to a more local and acceptable (to the Alliance and other newly-emerged powers) scale...

Of course, himself being himself, I suspect to wait another ten years only to find out I was completely wrong

The thing is regardless of what happens to Darius the RF plan is still viable and was based on taking centuries from the beginning of the RF's rise based on what has been written about the subject.