[Meta] Why have the missile pods reach Spindle in time?

munroburton wrote:

akira.taylor wrote:<SNIP>

Yeah, my big complaint about Spindle has always been that they didn't wait longer between the first and second salvos. They had plenty of time, and wouldn't have risked wasting a (rather large number of) missiles. While Tenth Fleet didn't know about the imminent ammo shortage, I would think they would have some concern about a local shortage (and peeved supply officers).

They had no reason to anticipate a permanent ammo shortage. The war with Haven was paused, with a significant stockpile being accumulated.

Crandall had the most powerful opposing force for hundreds of light years(the second powerful was what, Verrochio's FF detachment or decimated Monica?) and Henke knew two squadrons of SD(P)s with full magazines were on their way.

Under such circumstances, knowing I face some seventy SDs and screen with only a few dozen battlecruisers and cruisers, I would not be overly worried about ammo conservation.

It's hammered into RMN commanders to fight hard, using everything they have. And even now, it's not a huge problem, with Havenite-built pods and MDMs readily available if it comes to that, before Trevor's Star and Beowulf set up new missile lines.

My thought was: fire the first salvo (which was excessive, but she didn't know by how much). Then, wait to see what it does before firing the second salvo. She had plenty of time (and knew it), and the, what, minute or two? delay in the arrival of the second salvo (if launched) was unlikely to matter to the defending SLN.

Partly, it seemed to me that the RMN wasn't that surprised at the result they got (it was worse than expected, but "destroyed" vs "mission killed" aren't really that different). So, if you think you are going to eliminate 1/3 of the enemy wall in the opening salvo, why launch the second salvo before you have a chance to suggest surrender again (and consider retargeting)?

Although, thinking about it now, she may have wanted the intimidation of the second salvo.

[Again, I didn't think she was concerned about her ability to get more ammo, just being uncomfortably low until she can get a fresh shipment.]

I hope that all makes sense.

akira.taylor wrote:My thought was: fire the first salvo (which was excessive, but she didn't know by how much). Then, wait to see what it does before firing the second salvo. She had plenty of time (and knew it), and the, what, minute or two? delay in the arrival of the second salvo (if launched) was unlikely to matter to the defending SLN.

Partly, it seemed to me that the RMN wasn't that surprised at the result they got (it was worse than expected, but "destroyed" vs "mission killed" aren't really that different). So, if you think you are going to eliminate 1/3 of the enemy wall in the opening salvo, why launch the second salvo before you have a chance to suggest surrender again (and consider retargeting)?

Although, thinking about it now, she may have wanted the intimidation of the second salvo.

[Again, I didn't think she was concerned about her ability to get more ammo, just being uncomfortably low until she can get a fresh shipment.]

I hope that all makes sense.

They didn't expect to eliminate so many SDs in the first salvo. They were operating on the assumption that the Sollies were better than the Buttercup-era Havenite Navy. The captured FF ships weren't reliable for assessing the effectively separate Battle Fleet.

The second salvo coming in may not have been the deciding factor when the next in command struck their wedges, but it certainly had some effect. What if those ships had reversed course and ran for the hyper limit? Even if subsequent delayed salvos batter them some more, they could spread out aross the Quadrant's systems, destroying the orbital infrastructures, kidnap members of the system governments and various other mischief.

They used 1500 pods per salvo, for just over 3000 total. Those pods were drawn from the reserve for at least two battle squadrons. IIRC, RMN SD(P)s carry between 500 and 1000 pods. Those squadrons would be carrying twelve thousand pods total, give or take a few thousand.

If the pod reserve was at least equal to the full ammo load of those squadrons, Henke only fired a quarter of her Apollo pods. That rapidly becomes an eighth when the squadrons arrive.

kzt wrote:

munroburton wrote:It's hammered into RMN commanders to fight hard, using everything they have.

Except when defending the home system against a few hundred Peep SDs...

Fortress Command couldn't find the launch code keys. They didn't dare tell the fleet commanders that!

akira.taylor wrote:My thought was: fire the first salvo (which was excessive, but she didn't know by how much). Then, wait to see what it does before firing the second salvo. She had plenty of time (and knew it), and the, what, minute or two? delay in the arrival of the second salvo (if launched) was unlikely to matter to the defending SLN.

Partly, it seemed to me that the RMN wasn't that surprised at the result they got (it was worse than expected, but "destroyed" vs "mission killed" aren't really that different). So, if you think you are going to eliminate 1/3 of the enemy wall in the opening salvo, why launch the second salvo before you have a chance to suggest surrender again (and consider retargeting)?

Although, thinking about it now, she may have wanted the intimidation of the second salvo.

[Again, I didn't think she was concerned about her ability to get more ammo, just being uncomfortably low until she can get a fresh shipment.]

I hope that all makes sense.

My take is that spacing the salvos out really hurts if it turns out that you were wrong about the effectiveness of Battle Fleet's missile defenses. Your closely times 2nd and 3rd salvos are some of your most effective - at least until accumulating damage cripples their active defenses.

The enemy doesn't have the undistracted tracking time against them that they do on the 1st, because they're still busy engaging the 1st salvo as the 2nd crashes into their outer missile defense[1], but they haven't had time to react any ECM surprises the 1st salvo revealed, so their decoys and jammers are still basically in their pre-engagement "best guess" mode.


Give them a couple minutes to see if they surrender and they've got time to make adjustments to their missile defense plans, and ECM/decoy employment. If the SLN had been borderline capable of handling the kind of missile storm the Sag-Cs + Mk23Es could send their way then giving them time to learn and apply lessons before a follow up 2nd salvo could theoretically drastically drive up the number of missiles needed to stop them (because you didn't get in the free hits before they could adjust; which would reduce their active defenses by the time they could make adjustments)

Sure we know with the benefit of hindsight that, if anything, the Manties were overestimating the missile defenses of a Battlefleet SD formation. So they could have easily blown them away after a pause; without requiring drastically more missiles. But Mike had no way to be sure of that on the day. She played it safer and went for the strong double blow to best ensure that she was able to meet her mission objectives.

There was also no particular reason for Henke to care whether it was overkill. The point was to shut Crandall down fast and hard.

Keep in mind, the selection of battle plans was effectively Terekhov's, though Henke et. obviously had a hand in the decision. Say for example if Crandall had gone with perhaps a different set of formations -- though it wouldn't have influenced the battle outcome, Terekhov would have selected a different plan to optimize the initial salvo(s), etc.

As it was, with the massed formation, the whole point is to disrupt the Solarian wall of battle's mutual defense capability, so the RMN wasn't about to risk an improvement in Solly defenses with smaller salvo(s). So the "hit them fast and hard" plan was the best selectable offensive action, even if it turned out to be a bit of overkill because the SLN's counter-defenses were so poor.

akira.taylor wrote: My thought was: fire the first salvo (which was excessive, but she didn't know by how much). Then, wait to see what it does before firing the second salvo. She had plenty of time (and knew it), and the, what, minute or two? delay in the arrival of the second salvo (if launched) was unlikely to matter to the defending SLN.

Partly, it seemed to me that the RMN wasn't that surprised at the result they got (it was worse than expected, but "destroyed" vs "mission killed" aren't really that different). So, if you think you are going to eliminate 1/3 of the enemy wall in the opening salvo, why launch the second salvo before you have a chance to suggest surrender again (and consider retargeting)?

The second salvo was used to make a very pointed suggestion to surrender. The third had been held back and, if needed, could have been spread over more targets.

[Terekhov] ... gazed at the display for almost a full minute, absorbing the results, watching the sudden disintegration of the Solarian wall's formation as individual captains tried to avoid the debris of slaughtered consorts or swerved in frantic, independent evasion patterns as the Bravo launch swept towards them. Then he turned to look at Stillwell Lewis.
"Execute Exclamation Point," he said.
"Executing Exclamation Point, aye, Sir!"
Lewis' finger stabbed a key at his console, and twenty seconds later, every one of the Bravo launch missiles detonated as one, millions of kilometers short of their targets.
"Spot the Charlie pods but hold launch," Terekhov said.
"Holding Charlie launch, aye, Sir," Lewis replied, and Terekhov sat back in his chair, waiting.

Bill Woods wrote:

akira.taylor wrote: My thought was: fire the first salvo (which was excessive, but she didn't know by how much). Then, wait to see what it does before firing the second salvo. She had plenty of time (and knew it), and the, what, minute or two? delay in the arrival of the second salvo (if launched) was unlikely to matter to the defending SLN.

Partly, it seemed to me that the RMN wasn't that surprised at the result they got (it was worse than expected, but "destroyed" vs "mission killed" aren't really that different). So, if you think you are going to eliminate 1/3 of the enemy wall in the opening salvo, why launch the second salvo before you have a chance to suggest surrender again (and consider retargeting)?

The second salvo was used to make a very pointed suggestion to surrender. The third had been held back and, if needed, could have been spread over more targets.

[Terekhov] ... gazed at the display for almost a full minute, absorbing the results, watching the sudden disintegration of the Solarian wall's formation as individual captains tried to avoid the debris of slaughtered consorts or swerved in frantic, independent evasion patterns as the Bravo launch swept towards them. Then he turned to look at Stillwell Lewis.
"Execute Exclamation Point," he said.
"Executing Exclamation Point, aye, Sir!"
Lewis' finger stabbed a key at his console, and twenty seconds later, every one of the Bravo launch missiles detonated as one, millions of kilometers short of their targets.
"Spot the Charlie pods but hold launch," Terekhov said.
"Holding Charlie launch, aye, Sir," Lewis replied, and Terekhov sat back in his chair, waiting.

Hmm. Clearly I need to reread the book - I had forgotten the exact timing of the second launch. (I was thinking it was later, so it wouldn't hit the outer missile defense envelope that soon after the first salvo was dealt with.)

Clearly, the possibility of crippling the SLN occurred to them, and they decided the point of having more salvos like the first was deemed a Good Idea.

Well, it was never a serious complaint, any way. (I always felt my issue might be some-what meta, any way.)