Political Subdivisions of the Empire of Charis

One thing that's never been quite clear to me:

The Empire was formed from the Kingdom of Charis and the Kingdom of Chisholm.

It later added the Principality of Emerald.

And the Kingdom of Tarot.

And the Grand Duchy of Zebediah.

And the Principality of Corisande.

There's textev in BSRA that Zebediah was originally a Principality until the Daykins of Corisande put an end to that.

OK, the question is why? Why were they not all Kingdoms?

Would it be reasonable for Cayleb - or, more likely, Alahnah or her heirs - to first restore Zebediah to Principality status, possibly if Chermyn or his heirs marry into the remaining Zebediahan aristocracy, then elevate the member Principalities to member Kingdoms, carefully keeping intact the relative standing of their respective rulers in the Empire?

FreeTrav wrote:One thing that's never been quite clear to me:

The Empire was formed from the Kingdom of Charis and the Kingdom of Chisholm.

It later added the Principality of Emerald.

And the Kingdom of Tarot.

And the Grand Duchy of Zebediah.

And the Principality of Corisande.

There's textev in BSRA that Zebediah was originally a Principality until the Daykins of Corisande put an end to that.

OK, the question is why? Why were they not all Kingdoms?

Would it be reasonable for Cayleb - or, more likely, Alahnah or her heirs - to first restore Zebediah to Principality status, possibly if Chermyn or his heirs marry into the remaining Zebediahan aristocracy, then elevate the member Principalities to member Kingdoms, carefully keeping intact the relative standing of their respective rulers in the Empire?

Why were all the member states of the Holy Roman Empire not simply called 'Princedoms', instead of the hotchpot of duchies, counties, free imperial cities, knights' estattes, baronies etc that constituted that realm?

Simple answer: historical evolution.

Old Charis itself grew out of an independent nobleman's territory centred upon Tellesberg, that grew to become the Duchy of Armahk and eventually the Kingdom of Charis because of its control of Helen Island, Lock Island and thus its dominance of the Throat.

Typically, as a nobleman grew powerful enough to subjugate his neighbours, he'd award himself a higher rank in order to emphasize his dominance. I imagine that, had Hektor survived, eventually he would have declared himself King of Corisande. Of course, on Safehold there is the added factor of the Church's stance that would influence such a move.

In Europe there was never really any kind of standard to determine whether a demesne qualified as a duchy or an earldom or a barony etc. It's a common assumption that duchies, for example, were more powerful, extensive and populous than, say, baronies, but that's a false assumption. There were plenty of duchies that were tiny compared to neighbouring demesnes of an officially lower ranking. The various Saxon duchies of the HRE come strongly to mind.

IIRC Zebediah was a Grand Dukedom and independent until the Daykins of Corisande came calling.

The general speculation (no confirmation or disagreement from David Weber) is that on Safehold the Church decided if a ruler was a Duke, Grand Duke, Prince, King or Emperor.

Very likely based on the population of his realm.

As for why Hektor was "just a Prince", it is very possible that Hektor didn't bother to request the title change from the Church.

The title change or lack of the change wouldn't change Hektor's authority & power and Hektor didn't care if he was call King or Prince as long as his subjects obeyed.

Of course, it's also possible that the Archbishop of Corisande asked for a larger "bribe" to submit the paperwork (for the change) than Hektor was willing to pay.

hanuman wrote:

FreeTrav wrote:One thing that's never been quite clear to me:

The Empire was formed from the Kingdom of Charis and the Kingdom of Chisholm.

It later added the Principality of Emerald.

And the Kingdom of Tarot.

And the Grand Duchy of Zebediah.

And the Principality of Corisande.

There's textev in BSRA that Zebediah was originally a Principality until the Daykins of Corisande put an end to that.

OK, the question is why? Why were they not all Kingdoms?

Would it be reasonable for Cayleb - or, more likely, Alahnah or her heirs - to first restore Zebediah to Principality status, possibly if Chermyn or his heirs marry into the remaining Zebediahan aristocracy, then elevate the member Principalities to member Kingdoms, carefully keeping intact the relative standing of their respective rulers in the Empire?

Why were all the member states of the Holy Roman Empire not simply called 'Princedoms', instead of the hotchpot of duchies, counties, free imperial cities, knights' estattes, baronies etc that constituted that realm?

Simple answer: historical evolution.

Old Charis itself grew out of an independent nobleman's territory centred upon Tellesberg, that grew to become the Duchy of Armahk and eventually the Kingdom of Charis because of its control of Helen Island, Lock Island and thus its dominance of the Throat.

Typically, as a nobleman grew powerful enough to subjugate his neighbours, he'd award himself a higher rank in order to emphasize his dominance. I imagine that, had Hektor survived, eventually he would have declared himself King of Corisande. Of course, on Safehold there is the added factor of the Church's stance that would influence such a move.

In Europe there was never really any kind of standard to determine whether a demesne qualified as a duchy or an earldom or a barony etc. It's a common assumption that duchies, for example, were more powerful, extensive and populous than, say, baronies, but that's a false assumption. There were plenty of duchies that were tiny compared to neighbouring demesnes of an officially lower ranking. The various Saxon duchies of the HRE come strongly to mind.

DrakBibliophile wrote:IIRC Zebediah was a Grand Dukedom and independent until the Daykins of Corisande came calling.

"By Schism Rent Asunder" hardcover version, page 25, says that the last Prince of Zebediah was executed by Hector.

FreeTrav wrote:One thing that's never been quite clear to me:

The Empire was formed from the Kingdom of Charis and the Kingdom of Chisholm.

It later added the Principality of Emerald.

And the Kingdom of Tarot.

And the Grand Duchy of Zebediah.

And the Principality of Corisande.

There's textev in BSRA that Zebediah was originally a Principality until the Daykins of Corisande put an end to that.

OK, the question is why? Why were they not all Kingdoms?

Would it be reasonable for Cayleb - or, more likely, Alahnah or her heirs - to first restore Zebediah to Principality status, possibly if Chermyn or his heirs marry into the remaining Zebediahan aristocracy, then elevate the member Principalities to member Kingdoms, carefully keeping intact the relative standing of their respective rulers in the Empire?

Sometimes it is fun to read the real world titles attached to various country's nobility now and in the past. Queen Elizabeth II, at the time of her coronation in 1953, was monarch of a world-wide empire and had individual titles of such length that they could not all be read without the ceremony going on too long. There is no logic then or now or on Safehold to rationalize titles except when it is convenient to the powers-that-be.

There were periods when it was more systematic than that. Some places.

England and Scotland, for example, restricted Duke to members of the royal family until the 16th & 17th centuries, respectively. Even after that it was a pretty clear indication of the recipient's position at court - the only real exception being Wellington, who actually was a mover and shaker in the real world.

France also, after the suppression of the original quasi-independent duchies of Burgundy, Normandy, Brittany and Aquitaine, seems to have restricted the usage to sons of the king [mostly bastards, in fact] up through the 18th century.

You'll notice that all three of those had [relatively] strong central monarchies whose opinions on such things actually mattered.

hanuman wrote:

FreeTrav wrote:One thing that's never been quite clear to me:

The Empire was formed from the Kingdom of Charis and the Kingdom of Chisholm.

It later added the Principality of Emerald.

And the Kingdom of Tarot.

And the Grand Duchy of Zebediah.

And the Principality of Corisande.

There's textev in BSRA that Zebediah was originally a Principality until the Daykins of Corisande put an end to that.

OK, the question is why? Why were they not all Kingdoms?

Would it be reasonable for Cayleb - or, more likely, Alahnah or her heirs - to first restore Zebediah to Principality status, possibly if Chermyn or his heirs marry into the remaining Zebediahan aristocracy, then elevate the member Principalities to member Kingdoms, carefully keeping intact the relative standing of their respective rulers in the Empire?

Why were all the member states of the Holy Roman Empire not simply called 'Princedoms', instead of the hotchpot of duchies, counties, free imperial cities, knights' estattes, baronies etc that constituted that realm?

Simple answer: historical evolution.

Old Charis itself grew out of an independent nobleman's territory centred upon Tellesberg, that grew to become the Duchy of Armahk and eventually the Kingdom of Charis because of its control of Helen Island, Lock Island and thus its dominance of the Throat.

Typically, as a nobleman grew powerful enough to subjugate his neighbours, he'd award himself a higher rank in order to emphasize his dominance. I imagine that, had Hektor survived, eventually he would have declared himself King of Corisande. Of course, on Safehold there is the added factor of the Church's stance that would influence such a move.

In Europe there was never really any kind of standard to determine whether a demesne qualified as a duchy or an earldom or a barony etc. It's a common assumption that duchies, for example, were more powerful, extensive and populous than, say, baronies, but that's a false assumption. There were plenty of duchies that were tiny compared to neighbouring demesnes of an officially lower ranking. The various Saxon duchies of the HRE come strongly to mind.

Louis R wrote:England and Scotland, for example, restricted Duke to members of the royal family until the 16th & 17th centuries, respectively. Even after that it was a pretty clear indication of the recipient's position at court - the only real exception being Wellington, who actually was a mover and shaker in the real world.

I don't know about Scotland, but you're wrong about England. The Dukes of Norfolk, the de Mowbray / Howard families were never members of the Royal family. and the Dukedom has been in existence since the 14th century.

If you look at Thomas de Mowbray's arms you'll notice they seem rather Englandish.

Properly so, too: he's a descendant of Edward I. [I'd have to dig to see if the connection was legitimate, but the Normans and Tudors have pretty firmly established that that's not a prerequisite for standing in the succession]

wyrm wrote:

Louis R wrote:England and Scotland, for example, restricted Duke to members of the royal family until the 16th & 17th centuries, respectively. Even after that it was a pretty clear indication of the recipient's position at court - the only real exception being Wellington, who actually was a mover and shaker in the real world.

I don't know about Scotland, but you're wrong about England. The Dukes of Norfolk, the de Mowbray / Howard families were never members of the Royal family. and the Dukedom has been in existence since the 14th century.

I'm more interested in the legal relationship between the Empire and Tarrot, Emerald, Zebediah and Corisande. When the Empire formed Charis and Chisholm sort of ceased to exist, but they send MPs to the central Parliament, however that doesn't apply to the smaller islands, so what's the deal?

SCC wrote:I'm more interested in the legal relationship between the Empire and Tarrot, Emerald, Zebediah and Corisande. When the Empire formed Charis and Chisholm sort of ceased to exist, but they send MPs to the central Parliament, however that doesn't apply to the smaller islands, so what's the deal?

I think what you are missing is happening off stage. Zebediah, Tarot and Emerald will all have MPs.

Don