[Meta] Why have the missile pods reach Spindle in time?

In Mission of Honor, there's a bit of worry over which ships will reach Spindle first - Mike's freighters or Crandall's SDs.

Rereading it - particularly after ART and SoF - I can't help thinking the reverse outcome would have been more interesting. There's no shortage of curbstomp battles vs the SLN - New Tuscany, Saltash, Zunker, Manticore - not counting the ones where the outcome is clear enough for even the SLN to notice.
In fact, enough that I don't even enjoy reading them anymore - 2nd Manticore was an exact rerun of Spindle, with characters swapped and a few zeroes added.

Even in the grand narrative it seems somewhat pointless - originally I thought it would be the big nail to finally make the League realise the problems they had. Then I read ART, and Hadley/Carmichael spent the whole of that book failing to achieve the same goal, hence the scaled-up repeat.

It just seems to me that the other scenario - Mike having to make a real fight of it, and possibly being forced to withdraw for a day or two - would be more interesting and still fit the same niche in the narrative.
We'd get to see the Nike and Sag-C squadrons work for something (which doesn't look like happening soon), have a new issue to throw the politicians in Spindle at, and at the end of the day Crandall would still be hammered flat by light warships.
The outcome would be less definitive, but that would make the Mandarins' response just a little more plausible - this bunch are running the largest political entity yet devised, the sheer extent of their idiocy was stretching my credulity by about halfway through ART.

I should put some concluding remark here, but I don't have one to hand.

David has missed multiple opportunities to tell the stories I'd rather read. For example, having the seizure of Lynx succeed, having 2nd BoM only briefly discussed over dinner with the surviving senior SL officer, really dealing with the impact of OB rather than handwaving it away, etc.

However this is not the stories David wants to tell. And I'm on board with those too.

I think we did a thread about this some time back; in fact, I think I started it.

And IIRC, the consensus was that Crandall's forces were toast anyway. Remember, Mike had three ammunition ships already stuffed with Mark-23 pods on-hand (The only thing the SD(P)'s had different were that they were all-up Apollo's with the Mark 23E control missiles).

Given that, all Mike really had to do was have the ammo ships roll pods. With each CA able to control 128 missiles and her BC's a (estimated) 160, she could put 3,600 Mark-23's downrange with full control for each...and do that about every 30 seconds. Putting about 500+ per SLN SD, she'd hit about 7 ships per volley, at a range that the Sollies couldn't begin to reply from.

The only way Mike Henke would lose Spindle would be to have no MArk-23's, and even then the Mark 16's would do a lot of damage...and 400 LAC's that the Sollies would never see coming down the throat would do more.

So the deck wasn't just stacked; it was coded and marked and scanned.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Hutch wrote:I think we did a thread about this some time back; in fact, I think I started it.

And IIRC, the consensus was that Crandall's forces were toast anyway. Remember, Mike had three ammunition ships already stuffed with Mark-23 pods on-hand (The only thing the SD(P)'s had different were that they were all-up Apollo's with the Mark 23E control missiles).

Given that, all Mike really had to do was have the ammo ships roll pods. With each CA able to control 128 missiles and her BC's a (estimated) 160, she could put 3,600 Mark-23's downrange with full control for each...and do that about every 30 seconds. Putting about 500+ per SLN SD, she'd hit about 7 ships per volley, at a range that the Sollies couldn't begin to reply from.

The only way Mike Henke would lose Spindle would be to have no MArk-23's, and even then the Mark 16's would do a lot of damage...and 400 LAC's that the Sollies would never see coming down the throat would do more.

So the deck wasn't just stacked; it was coded and marked and scanned.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

If memory serves, there wasn't just 1 thread, but multiple discussing Crandall's many offensive options in the quadrant. Pretty much, the outcome for Crandall's fleet for each of the options came down to the setting on the toaster. From a very dark brown to, as 1 poster put it, "Great Chicago Fire" toast.

The MAlign chose Crandall because she was a bull in a china shop and could be depended on to go charging in intent on taking Spindle by force majeur. Henke's tactics were simply picador/matador executioner -- and the MAlign did not have control of how the battle went. They couldn't predict the battle, just the outcome.

I don't mind whichever version of toast was served, the fact is that RFC's chosen single volley approach likely killed less SLN spacers than a seven SD-at-a-time version or a longer battle which is perfectly aligned with the author's consistent ethos for the RMN.

Hutch wrote:So the deck wasn't just stacked; it was coded and marked and scanned.

It occurs to me that one very potent argument for getting Tenth Fleet Apollo pods to deploy in the system defense mode is that RFC didn't want to reveal just how outclassed SLN ships are.

Mike's squadron of Agememnons was probably sufficient with just her on-board load of Mk16s. Throw in the Nikes, Sag-Cs and Rolands, and Crandall was out gunned. Butt...

Exposing the SLN's gross failings at that point would completely destroy any suspense (not that there was much anyway) about the fate of the SLN.

Weird Harold wrote:

Hutch wrote:So the deck wasn't just stacked; it was coded and marked and scanned.

It occurs to me that one very potent argument for getting Tenth Fleet Apollo pods to deploy in the system defense mode is that RFC didn't want to reveal just how outclassed SLN ships are.

Mike's squadron of Agememnons was probably sufficient with just her on-board load of Mk16s. Throw in the Nikes, Sag-Cs and Rolands, and Crandall was out gunned. Butt...

Exposing the SLN's gross failings at that point would completely destroy any suspense (not that there was much anyway) about the fate of the SLN.

Nit: Mike gas no Agamemmons in her OOB- despite the Artemis name, all 16 of her BC'S are Nikes.

Weird Harold wrote: It occurs to me that one very potent argument for getting Tenth Fleet Apollo pods to deploy in the system defense mode is that RFC didn't want to reveal just how outclassed SLN ships are.

Mike's squadron of Agememnons was probably sufficient with just her on-board load of Mk16s. Throw in the Nikes, Sag-Cs and Rolands, and Crandall was out gunned. Butt...

Exposing the SLN's gross failings at that point would completely destroy any suspense (not that there was much anyway) about the fate of the SLN.

Give Mike only her tube-launched Mark-16's and it might have been a bit dicier, IMHO. So let's run the numbers.

The Sag-C's have a broadside of 20, or 40 tubes total and can fire double broadsides (80 missiles each). The Nikes have a 25-tube broadside, so 50 tubes twice is 100 missiles. A little math and that comes to 2,460 tube-launched missiles they could fire per broadside. Since they are not as powerful as Mark-23's, and Mike couldn't know for certain that even the upgraded 16's could take out a SD (Zavala would demonstrate later at Saltash just how devasting the more powerful 16's were). So I think she would have concentrated about 600 missiles per ship, or targeted 4 ships per broadside.

This would neccesitate about 18 double broadsides, or about 1,400 missiles per CA and 1,800 per BC..and I am not sure the size of their magazines. So it might have been a close run thing.

I didn't mention the Rolands, given they only carry about 240 missiles each (IIRC). They could have fired ten double broadsides (as they did at Saltash) and while that would have taken out most of the accompanying BC's and smaller stuff, it would again shoot them dry.

So in this case, I would expect that the 400 LAC's would go in under steath after the last broadside against whatever ships were still there and show the Sollies (briefly) what new (and lethal) toys they had.

So I do agree with the above; given the disparity, the MWW made Spindle about as least bloody as he could.

Hutch wrote:

Weird Harold wrote: It occurs to me that one very potent argument for getting Tenth Fleet Apollo pods to deploy in the system defense mode is that RFC didn't want to reveal just how outclassed SLN ships are.

Mike's squadron of Agememnons was probably sufficient with just her on-board load of Mk16s. Throw in the Nikes, Sag-Cs and Rolands, and Crandall was out gunned. Butt...

Exposing the SLN's gross failings at that point would completely destroy any suspense (not that there was much anyway) about the fate of the SLN.

Give Mike only her tube-launched Mark-16's and it might have been a bit dicier, IMHO. So let's run the numbers.

The Sag-C's have a broadside of 20, or 40 tubes total and can fire double broadsides (80 missiles each). The Nikes have a 25-tube broadside, so 50 tubes twice is 100 missiles. A little math and that comes to 2,460 tube-launched missiles they could fire per broadside. Since they are not as powerful as Mark-23's, and Mike couldn't know for certain that even the upgraded 16's could take out a SD (Zavala would demonstrate later at Saltash just how devasting the more powerful 16's were). So I think she would have concentrated about 600 missiles per ship, or targeted 4 ships per broadside.

This would neccesitate about 18 double broadsides, or about 1,400 missiles per CA and 1,800 per BC..and I am not sure the size of their magazines. So it might have been a close run thing.

I didn't mention the Rolands, given they only carry about 240 missiles each (IIRC). They could have fired ten double broadsides (as they did at Saltash) and while that would have taken out most of the accompanying BC's and smaller stuff, it would again shoot them dry.

So in this case, I would expect that the 400 LAC's would go in under steath after the last broadside against whatever ships were still there and show the Sollies (briefly) what new (and lethal) toys they had.

So I do agree with the above; given the disparity, the MWW made Spindle about as least bloody as he could.

The Mag on a Sag-C is ~1200 and the Mag on a Nike is ~6600, so the Sag-Cs would have gone dry before the last 5 slavos, but the Nikes would have had plenty of headroom for extra salvos.

Hutch wrote:

Weird Harold wrote: It occurs to me that one very potent argument for getting Tenth Fleet Apollo pods to deploy in the system defense mode is that RFC didn't want to reveal just how outclassed SLN ships are.

Mike's squadron of Agememnons was probably sufficient with just her on-board load of Mk16s. Throw in the Nikes, Sag-Cs and Rolands, and Crandall was out gunned. Butt...

Exposing the SLN's gross failings at that point would completely destroy any suspense (not that there was much anyway) about the fate of the SLN.

Give Mike only her tube-launched Mark-16's and it might have been a bit dicier, IMHO. So let's run the numbers.

The Sag-C's have a broadside of 20, or 40 tubes total and can fire double broadsides (80 missiles each). The Nikes have a 25-tube broadside, so 50 tubes twice is 100 missiles. A little math and that comes to 2,460 tube-launched missiles they could fire per broadside. Since they are not as powerful as Mark-23's, and Mike couldn't know for certain that even the upgraded 16's could take out a SD (Zavala would demonstrate later at Saltash just how devasting the more powerful 16's were). So I think she would have concentrated about 600 missiles per ship, or targeted 4 ships per broadside.

This would neccesitate about 18 double broadsides, or about 1,400 missiles per CA and 1,800 per BC..and I am not sure the size of their magazines. So it might have been a close run thing.

I didn't mention the Rolands, given they only carry about 240 missiles each (IIRC). They could have fired ten double broadsides (as they did at Saltash) and while that would have taken out most of the accompanying BC's and smaller stuff, it would again shoot them dry.

So in this case, I would expect that the 400 LAC's would go in under steath after the last broadside against whatever ships were still there and show the Sollies (briefly) what new (and lethal) toys they had.

So I do agree with the above; given the disparity, the MWW made Spindle about as least bloody as he could.

That's also assuming that they shoot as fast as they can, and that nobody surrenders. If Admiral Henke spaces her shots she's got time to assess the effect and spread the later salvos among more ships. At least, I think she does.