Thoughts from a Newbie: Rose Reads Safehold

Posted at the local ASPCA shelter, I volunteer at.

Dog's have master's
Cats have staff.

CRC wrote:Midst Toil and Tribulation is the most trying of the series and a real tissue enabler.

LAMA is much more positive and HFQ looks even more uplifting.

I'm not gonna lie, my impression of MTaT (which I just finished a few hours ago) is "a lot of people are dying in Siddarmark. It's really, really horrifying. Also, Irys is cool and Sharleyan is a BAMF. Yay, look at Nahrmahn being awesome! Oh, look, more people dying in horrible, tragic ways that will probably give me nightmares. [some three hundred pages later] what do you mean they're still dying??"

...well. That and my ongoing desire to kiss Greyghor Stohnar totally insensible. That poor man.

Re: the Theisman v. Thirsk debate, I can only agree that Thirsk has far more held over his head than Theisman did. Tom didn't have family the CPS could threaten him with; Thirsk does. Theisman was also basically handed the keys to the kingdom by Saint-Just, which put him in a place to do something about it (and put a hell of a lot of other people, namely Eloise Pritchart, Shannon Foraker, Javier Giscard, and Lester Tourville, in a place where they could help him do something about it).

Of course, Thomas Theisman is also basically Haven's guardian angel incarnate, so that might have something to do with it, too.

In any case, I don't know if Thirsk will ever rise as magnificently to the occasion as Tom Theisman did, or if he'll even be given the opportunity to. But way back in something called The Short Victorious War, we didn't know if Theisman would, either.

I certainly see the capacity for Thirsk to do great things, but whether he'll ever be in a position to, I simply don't know. Or at least, not without breaking him into a gibbering mess because he's lost everything he ever cared about.

...aren't Weber series fun?? *slightly sickly smile*

Anyway, I'm thrilled to be here, thoroughly enjoying my first romp through this world, and looking forward to read-through number two so I can stop going "but what's going to happen next??" and actually start putting together some more cogent, in-depth, critically thought out opinions on the sociopolitical landscape of this fascinating new world, which we all know is my favorite thing to do with any of RFC's works.

saber964 wrote:Posted at the local ASPCA shelter, I volunteer at.

Dog's have master's
Cats have staff.

Perhaps you could suggest that the remove the apostrophes from the first statement? It seems to have been intended as a plural, as was cats in the next sentence, rather than as a contraction or a possessive.

Hi Rose

If you want a reminder of how nasty RFC can be to us poor readers you could now read this snippet from LAMA, which was given out of sequence and with no further context long before the book came out. http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4015%20book%20came%20out.

BTW I agree with you that Sharleyan is some piece of work and feel it's a shame we see so relatively little of her.

Hello Rose
just remember that any one Maikel Staynair marries needs the approval of Ahrdyn the cat lizard.Ardryn considers Maikel Staynair to be his pet.

roseandheather wrote:

hanuman wrote:
RFC seems to have a thing for cats and how they regard humans as the perfect accessories...

RFC has an excellent grasp of the realities of the cat-human relationship.

(Also I want a cat-lizard please and thank you.)

bunyipbelle wrote:Hello Rose
just remember that any one Maikel Staynair marries needs the approval of Ahrdyn the cat lizard.Ardryn considers Maikel Staynair to be his pet.

Hi bunyipbelle, good to see you back!!

Of course I'd need Ahrdyn the cat-lizard's approval to marry Maikel. Wouldn't dream of even romancing him without it!

Further thoughts (I'm about 30% through LAMA at this point):

* General Symkyn (does he have a noble title?) is awesome.
* Ditto Green Valley.
* ARCHBISHOP KLAIMANT. Just... Archbishop Klaimant.
* Aivah Parsahn and Zhasyn Cahnyr need to get married.
* Greghor Stohnar is p. much my favorite.
* NAHRMAHN AND OHLYVYA. THAT IS ALL.

I agree that Sharley is a BAMF, and Irys is Irys, Nimue is hardcore, Ayvah/Nynian/Anjheliq is beyond amazing. Even Myrah Lucas and Lizbet Wylsyn are solid, smart, capable characters when they are on stage.

Which brings me to an interesting point. The story needs some less capable women as counterpoint characters. The men in the story run the gamut of capability from Duke Thorast and the Admiral of Broad Oceans on the low end to Thirsk, Duchairn, and Hywsmynn on the high end. However, the women in the story are across the board amazing.

Admittedly, a woman of less ability would have a hard time hanging with the lead characters, and only a woman of exceptional ability going to rise to a position to be "on stage" in a patriarchal society like the one on Safehold. That being said, a less capable woman could be introduced in the position of say... a dowager baroness of a Chisolmian or Corrisandian barony in an area that is critical for development. The character could be shown as being easily manipulated by those in opposition to the crown, then she realizes she has backed herself into a corner and reaches out to Sharley, Irys, or Queen Mother Alanna for help. It's probably a little late in the story to introduce such a story line, but not necessarily; Corrisand is just starting it's industrial revolution.

eldrwyrm wrote:I agree that Sharley is a BAMF, and Irys is Irys, Nimue is hardcore, Ayvah/Nynian/Anjheliq is beyond amazing. Even Myrah Lucas and Lizbet Wylsyn are solid, smart, capable characters when they are on stage.

Which brings me to an interesting point. The story needs some less capable women as counterpoint characters. The men in the story run the gamut of capability from Duke Thorast and the Admiral of Broad Oceans on the low end to Thirsk, Duchairn, and Hywsmynn on the high end. However, the women in the story are across the board amazing.

Admittedly, a woman of less ability would have a hard time hanging with the lead characters, and only a woman of exceptional ability going to rise to a position to be "on stage" in a patriarchal society like the one on Safehold. That being said, a less capable woman could be introduced in the position of say... a dowager baroness of a Chisolmian or Corrisandian barony in an area that is critical for development. The character could be shown as being easily manipulated by those in opposition to the crown, then she realizes she has backed herself into a corner and reaches out to Sharley, Irys, or Queen Mother Alanna for help. It's probably a little late in the story to introduce such a story line, but not necessarily; Corrisand is just starting it's industrial revolution.

I think you've just put your finger on why we haven't seen any incompetent women in positions of power, and the answer is that incompetent women don't get into positions of power in a society like Safehold's. The only way they're going to become prominent to play on that stage is by being very, very good at what they do, either in the spotlight (Sharleyan, Irys, Lady Mairah) or behind the scenes (Aivah, Ohlyvya, Alahnah). Your regular Admiral of the Broad Oceans, on the other hand, only needs the right connections to get handed an enormous hammer whether or not they know how to swing it.

And frankly, I'm not exactly going to complain about the fact that every woman with screen time worth talking about can kick ass and take names. On the other hand, when that's all you see, any deviation thereof gets people wailing, "How sexist OMG!" Take the case of the recent HBO series The Newsroom - any hint of weakness or even fallibility in a female character was pounced upon as evidence of Aaron Sorkin's supposed "hatred of women", while those doing the pouncing conveniently ignored the fact that the male characters were just as fallible, flawed, over-emotional, and prone to temper tantrums as the female characters.

So, in the interest of avoiding that hot mess, perhaps we could use a woman or two being handed the reins of some sort of power and screwing up by the numbers.

eldrwyrm wrote:Which brings me to an interesting point. The story needs some less capable women as counterpoint characters. The men in the story run the gamut of capability from Duke Thorast and the Admiral of Broad Oceans on the low end to Thirsk, Duchairn, and Hywsmynn on the high end. However, the women in the story are across the board amazing.

Well I can think of a couple of less exemplary women off the top of my head without stretching. Unfortunately, I can't remember names without going to do some research. Firstly there's the clerkess/secretary in the Charisian embassy in Siddar City, who not only passes messages unwittingly for years for her spy cousin, but rats out secrets to the TL clergy when the SoS is imminent. Then there's the noblewoman in Chisholm who is the widow of an executed traitor and is currently leading her son in the same sorry path, partly because she is overly influenced by a charismatic TL clergyman.

Randomiser wrote:

eldrwyrm wrote:Which brings me to an interesting point. The story needs some less capable women as counterpoint characters. The men in the story run the gamut of capability from Duke Thorast and the Admiral of Broad Oceans on the low end to Thirsk, Duchairn, and Hywsmynn on the high end. However, the women in the story are across the board amazing.

Well I can think of a couple of less exemplary women off the top of my head without stretching. Unfortunately, I can't remember names without going to do some research. Firstly there's the clerkess/secretary in the Charisian embassy in Siddar City, who not only passes messages unwittingly for years for her spy cousin, but rats out secrets to the TL clergy when the SoS is imminent. Then there's the noblewoman in Chisholm who is the widow of an executed traitor and is currently leading her son in the same sorry path, partly because she is overly influenced by a charismatic TL clergyman.

She wasn't unwitting when she passed messages for her cousin. She did it in full collaboration with her cousin. She believed the Church was right.